why is there not an official footbag?

Elliott · Post by **Elliott** » 21 Feb 2011 11:08

sen - all sports have a criteria for the size & weight (which vary slightly), but size & weight can be drastically altered in the case of a pee-wee/junior competition. i'm not an expert on all of those sports i mentioned, truth be told i was just naming crap. my point is this ............. Brazil doesn't show up at the world cup having the ref toss them a ball, & say no thanks ref i brought my own. it does not happen because there's a game ball.

drillbit - this topic is similar to others. so what? what's wrong with people giving their ideas on how to make something better? you know even though i haven't learned a new freestyle trick since 2005 i like modified.in because it gives players a chance to debate things. i haven't found anything similar for takraw or jokgu, & that's why i still scan modified for interesting discussions. nice chinlone ad by the way - i'm not sure what i was supposed to take away from that one.

landon palmer - illegal bags? yes i believe that some freestylers use illegal bags, whether they realize it or not.

footbagger007 - links? okay. what are you trying to say? 1.)whenever there is a rule change no matter the sport, it always creates controversy. 2.)althletes are crybabies & footbag is no exception. 3.) people disagree over insignificant things that have zero outcome on the results.

laroche - what am i looking for? two words: game ball.

sen - measurement of offical bags? yes, even official balls/bags should also be inspected before competitons & tournaments.

i realize that most footbag players like this customization of footbags & sure it makes the game unique, but what good does it do? i believe that the customization of footbags helps to place freestyle into a different category of sport than popular ones & hinders the growth of footbag in general.

sen · Post by **sen** » 21 Feb 2011 11:26

Elliott wrote: sen - measurement of offical bags? yes, even official balls/bags should also be inspected before competitons & tournaments.

What I'm trying to say is that if there were an official bag the judges would still have to examine it before each contestant used it. The judges today should be checking size and weight in accordance with the rules. They do not. Would having a stricter rule like you suggest mean that the judges would start caring? I think they just enforce the rules we do have.

Take my example of Bowling for example (I used to pretty good at 5 pin in my youth and would travel to tournaments and the like). Each pro bowler has their own set of bowling balls. They do show up a tournaments and use their own balls. Many of them have their names and or initials engraved in them. I myself have a set of bowling balls with my name in them that I had made with a certain weight and size that I enjoyed and that fit with the rules of YBC (Youth Bowling Committee) of which I was a member and competitor. I feel that Bowling is a good comparison as it is largely an individual sport, much like Freestyle Footbag. The bowling balls I used to practice with and compete with had no significance on the guy on the alley next to me. He was using the ones he practiced with as well.

This is different from Brazil showing up the World Cup and saying they don't want to use the official ball of the tournament because then their opposing teams would have to use it too, putting them at a disadvantage. For team sports played against other teams it makes perfect sense for bag/ball/puck/ect to have strict size and weight restrictions. If Brazil showed up and got to use their ball that was much heavier than anything the other teams had a chance to practice with, but Brazil had been using it all year it would put them at an advantage for sure. The other teams wouldn't know how it responds in all the various circumstances.

Freestyle Footbag =/= Football/soccer

drillbit · Post by **drillbit** » 21 Feb 2011 11:31

standardizing foot wear seems more appropriate.

your take away?

hmmm that i heard your chinlone reference and found that, as with all "why isnt" references, that chinlone and footbag are all the same thing.

Swizzle · Post by **Swizzle** » 21 Feb 2011 16:09

Elliott wrote: Sure freestyle is played solo, but that's just another reason why it remains in the shadows. Freestyle without the circle is just interpretative dance. The more I think about it.... the less I think freestyle can even be called a sport.

Freestyle solo could be compared to practicing other sports. Wall ball with lacrosse and soccer. Practicing in the batting cages. ect. Or if competed solo, the once again, Ice skating, Perhaps Bowling, Golf..?

- The main point on what I have to say about the sport issue is that sports are entertaining, and sports compete (Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger, or any other way) Hell yeah daft punk

- Footbag competes with similar aspects and also people stop to watch footbag. I, like you, don't want to argue about this but that is just food for thought.

Elliott wrote:Brazil doesn't show up at the world cup having the ref toss them a ball, & say no thanks ref i brought my own. it does not happen because there's a game ball.

Circle competition - one bag chosen and played with (game bag)

Elliott wrote: why am i concerned? i spent 8 years playing footbag & trying to get other people to learn before i got sick of being the last man standing. i would like to see footbag make a comeback & earn some respect.

Mainly, it seems like your are reacting and lashing out because of that last quote. I'm sorry you tried so hard to apparently fail - if that is even correct for me to say. But we have not and are not trying to make footbag have less respect. Please stop attacking us. Lets just logically think this through.

I don't feel like a standardize footbag would help footbag grow at all but perhaps i am wrong. I really haven't thought of this before. I would say starting with crochet bag/sandbag or whatever is better in the beginning. Similar to using a different type of baseball bat as you age (aluminum, larger, smaller, wood ect.) - or even starting with teeball. I realize that bats are not balls, or teeball has nothing to do with footbag or balls or bats; but the point is that it is easier to start with this type of bag or bat or way to play (teeball).

Footbag starts with kicks which is easier with the bags you used at first, and then progresses to a small 32 panel which is a medium between easy to set and easier to stall for large difficult tricks - which you don't start with.

As for referring people what bag to use, I would refer them to learn more by coming to to this site to read and asking any questions they want. It seems like a lot of people who stick with footbag are here, so that might be best. I found this site, asked tons of over-asked questions (shoes/bags ect..), and then 2 years later i am still playing.

I guess that's all the input i have
I vote that hania bags become standard if proven this will help.
All other stitchers, you guys better start stitching hania bags then

Elliott · Post by **Elliott** » 22 Feb 2011 13:18

sen - bowling comparison? bowling is way similar to footbag in regards to its customization like: color, pattern, coating, differently drilled finger holes, number of finger holes, & i've even read that the cores can also be of different materials. It's also competed as individuals or as teams & is by far the best comparison to freestyle i've ever pondered. here's the flaw in that analogy though, bowlers share the same lanes in head to head competiton like freestylers share a stage. since oil patterns play such a significant part of how a bowler rolls the ball, they often have to adjust their roll as the oil dries or runs over the pattern of the competing bowler. freestylers do not alter the conditions of the stage. Also unlike freestyle PBA events actually have a weigh-in, & people are not allowed to use balls that are over the weight limit. soccer comparison? yes soccer is a team sport unlike freestyle. so no your bag doesn't effect the player that takes the stage after you, unless you bag is actually illegal. once again i'm sure this is rare & most players are unaware if they are using an illegal bag. i agree that some rule enforcement would go a long way here.

drillbit - standardizing footwear? it could be an issue at some point maybe if somebody strapped some ping pong paddles to their feet. chinlone? i admit it's a nice idea that freestyle is like chinlone. unfortunately, footbag has winners & losers, B.A.P., hall of fame, - things that indicate a persons status within the culture. chinlone might be love... footbag is a long way off. besides, who's pinning money on you back?

swizzle - my freestyle opinion? i consider freestyle a compeition, not a sport. i keep ice skating, gymnastics, & bowling in the same category so please try not to take so much offense. circle kicking game ball? it's a start. my attack? listen up whipper snapper this is not an attack, but it might turn into one. i posted my opinion & am debating it against other peoples opinions - that's all. i failed? wow! let me ask you how many dozens of freestylers are kicking in Fenton. MO? people move (for work or school), some people have children & life just happens. when it does happen your scene, regardless of where you live will be altered dramatically is 2-3 years. i actually only played freestyle for 2 years, then switched to footbag net, & finally to sepak takraw. i love takraw & i wouldn't freestyle again even if Jordan Moir lived in my basement. okay that was getting way off base. the rest of your questions? i've already answered those previously in the discussion.

one bag to design, manufacture, distribute, market, sell, purchase, & play. it's so easy it's stupid! all the other sports are doing it (except bowling & who wants that comparison). i seem to be fielding tons of questions, but no one is answering any of mine.
1.) why can't footbag have an official ball?
2.) what good comes from customized footbags?
3.) have you ever seen a freestyle judge weigh or measure a footbag?

zachatree · Post by **zachatree** » 22 Feb 2011 14:32

this whole thread is filled with reasons why it dont.

Swizzle · Post by **Swizzle** » 22 Feb 2011 15:29

Elliott wrote:(1) so please try not to take so much offense.

(2) i failed? wow! let me ask you how many dozens of freestylers are kicking in Fenton. MO?

(3) my attack? listen up whipper snapper

(4) the rest of your questions? i've already answered those previously in the discussion.

First off, I didn't know you failed. (2) I guessed that because of the tone in your writing. I meant nothing degrading by it.

I also actually asked no other questions, I stated what it thought to help spark other ideas or come to conclusions on something (4).

You have had plenty of smartypants remarks already (3)(2), but I was not truly taken that much offense (1), I was attempting to help you stop reacting so emotionally and childishly. Apparently I failed. (2)

Yes that was meant to attack you, if you think that's pathetic or whatever, just realize it's only meant to be a mirror of you.

Swizzle · Post by **Swizzle** » 22 Feb 2011 15:32

99% chance I won't be responding again. Just so you know now.

sen · Post by **sen** » 22 Feb 2011 17:39

Elliott wrote: 1.) why can't footbag have an official ball?
2.) what good comes from customized footbags?
3.) have you ever seen a freestyle judge weigh or measure a footbag?

I'm enjoying this debate and feel it's worth having.

1. I haven't used a mass produced machine made bag that feels as nice as a hand stitched 32 panel bag. EVERY hand stitched 32 panel bag is different. Even if one person could produce enough bags to support the sport's needs they would all be different. And it's a VERY big if for one person being able to produce enough. Almost impossible I would say. Going to a machine made bag would be a step backward in equipment standards simply because they don't play as well. Unless there is some awesome machine made bag I've never heard of. Again, all mine have been utter crap.

2. Different bags for different styles. Different bags to promote more consistent play. Pick up Vasek's Footbag Manual. He talks about the importance of playing with different styles and weights of bags. Good read. Let me ask you this: What bad comes from customized footbags?

3. I have not. But just because existing rules aren't being enforced is not a good reason to introduce a new, restrictive rule. Footbag is still a very young sport. Bowling has been around for a long time and yes, they have come to have proper weigh ins (although at my level no one bothered so I could have used an illegal ball if I wanted to). Footbag needs to grow to this level. I don't think it would be too hard to have a small scale and ruler on the judges table and check everyone's bag before the round began. If we have rules they should be enforced.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 24 Feb 2011 09:41

Elliott wrote: i seem to be fielding tons of questions, but no one is answering any of mine.

Since you are advocating for change, it would seem to me that the burden of argument lies with you. That is to say, if you want to see footbag make a major change, such as adopting a standardized footbag, it is up to you to convince the community as to why it should have one.

So rather than asking:

Elliott wrote: 1.) why can't footbag have an official ball?
2.) what good comes from customized footbags?

...it would be more compelling if you answered the questions:

1.) why should footbag have an official ball?
2.) what good comes from standardized footbags?

So far, as best as I can tell, your three arguments for why we should have a standardized footbag are:

1. It would be easier for beginners if there were only one bag they had to choose from, and learn with.
2. It would reduce the variation in bags that people compete with.
3. Other sports have a standard game ball.

Here are my responses to these arguments in order.

1. As somebody else pointed out, an ideal bag for a beginner is different from an ideal bag for a top level competitor. Before you can learn to do multi-dex tricks, you need to learn to kick. It is easier to learn to kick a big crochet bag, than it is a 32 panel. Similarly, it is easier to hit nemesis with a 32 panel than it is with a crochet bag. I don't think it's possible to come up with a bag which suits the needs of beginners and pros at the same time. Frankly, the status quo seems to work fine: people start off with kick friendly bags, and over time migrate to bags which are better suited to delays and dexes.

2. What's wrong with people using different bags in competition? I'm not sure this makes it any easier for competitors, and in my experience I've never seen it affect the outcome of a competition. As somebody else pointed out, in Circle comp players agree on a bag and use it, and it's also not a problem there.

3. Just because another sport does something, it doesn't follow that we should do the same thing. If they have a game ball to address a need, and we have the same need, then it's worth looking into a game ball for us. But just saying "other successful sports have a game ball, therefore we need one too" is not a compelling argument.

drillbit · Post by **drillbit** » 24 Feb 2011 14:11

idk........for me all the different bags and choices are kinda a root of what footbag is all about. the sport is personal and social and unique.

even back in the 80's we would make our own bags, no where near as sophisticated as the ones being made now however. sure i had a packaged hack sack (original 2panel) but we still made and played with our "custom" footbags.

there is a relationship, IMO, that we develop with our footbags. that spirit should never be extinguished.

calemccoy · Post by **calemccoy** » 24 Feb 2011 18:31

if you never want to play freestyle footbag again, and only play takraw now, why do you give a flying clipper about the bags we use?

F[uns]tylin' Eclectic · Post by **F[uns]tylin' Eclectic** » 24 Feb 2011 22:55

Holy shit, Magus is back on the forum

You're saying that there should be a standard bag that everyone should use? Same weight for everyone, same size for everyone, same amount of panels for everyone, same number of stitches, same color pattern...

Take the swastika off of your sleeve, replace it with a smiley face, play footbag, and have fun.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but you're starting to look like this guy:

THIS GUY

And trust me, you don't wanna look like this guy....

zachatree · Post by **zachatree** » 25 Feb 2011 00:58

Take the swastika off of your sleeve, replace it with a smiley face, play footbag, and have fun.

Elliott · Post by **Elliott** » 25 Feb 2011 12:52

sen - thanks sen. i'm enjoying the debate as well, although it takes a decent amount of energy & time. i don't think i've ever participated in a modified.in discussion that's gone on this long. 1.) these "official" bags don't necessarily have to be machine made. i know for a fact that one footbag company gets their bags handmade from Pakistan. 2.) i haven't read the Vasek Manuel, but i'll give it a shot in the coming weeks. "What bad comes from customized footbags?" I don't really think anything bad comes from a customized footbag, but i think that a one bag system might help the sport grow & perhaps give footbag a more polished look.

c-fan - 1 & 2 are pretty much the same question & i think most of my answer applies to both, so here i go. i think it would make footbag look more professional, & it might even help the sport reach more people (by not having to special order these professional bags) by getting the official footbags next to soccer supplies in the sporting goods dept. on the back of the packaging, include a booklet + some links to actual footbag sites. stop paying $30+ for a footbag - that's a silly amount of money. hacky sack to freestyle is a huge jump to make. i believe the transition should be eaiser & that we should start with the bag i.e. more hacky sackers = more future footbaggers.

calemccoy - i've already invested so much time into footbag (80% net) that i kinda hate to give up on footbag completely. i would like to see footbag make a comeback even if i won't be participating.

f[uns]stylin' eclectic - all swastikas aside, after work i'm looking up Magnus & i'm gonna buy that man a beer! i don't know who he is.... sounds like a hero to me.

zachatree - must really dislike me, as his comments get shorter & shorter, yet grow increasingly negative in tone. is it becasue this topic runs contrary to your business model?

F[uns]tylin' Eclectic · Post by **F[uns]tylin' Eclectic** » 25 Feb 2011 14:32

Elliott wrote: f[uns]stylin' eclectic - all swastikas aside, after work i'm looking up Magnus & i'm gonna buy that man a beer! i don't know who he is.... sounds like a hero to me.

You've just made yourself sound like a COMPLETE moron. You've pretty much just said you're trolling modified to piss people off with this topic by saying Magus sounds like a hero to you...

calemccoy · Post by **calemccoy** » 25 Feb 2011 15:13

i agree, zachatree's last post was the most sinister, negatively toned post i have ever seen disgrace this forum:

"

"

why zachatree?

why?

Sporatical_Distractions · Post by **Sporatical_Distractions** » 25 Feb 2011 21:16

when it comes down to it, we play hacky sack. The current regulations are good enough.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 Feb 2011 14:56

I feel sure that if footbag ever becomes a big enough sport to have professionals there will definitely be an IFPA approved official bag, perhaps with slightly differently designed set bags at big footbag tournaments, perhaps still with some variety in size and weight.

I think mass manufacturing footbags of the quality that we play with is very easy, but the start up costs are such that you'd need a good market of that quality to make it worthwhile (and that doesn't exist yet). This goes to the obvious reason why there aren't official bags yet - it would be too expensive and time consuming to currently have one specific manufacturer, and there isn't a benefit in terms of sponsorship and marketing for the IFPA or footbag in granting that monopoly. If the sport ever becomes big enough for it to make business sense, I'm sure it will happen.

james · Post by **james** » 26 Feb 2011 17:17

This thread and all your arguments are fail.

The best bags are hand stitched with love.

I'll use whatever damn bag I please.