The 5 digit consecutive kicks club

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 14 Jul 2011 04:36

Jer,

I'm not really sure of the weight of my footbags. I don't custom-order a specific weight, and rarely have my hands on an accurate scale. Everybody I kick with regularly doesn't like to use my footbags because they think they're too light. I'd estimate they average 40 grams. Maybe most are 50/50 metal and plastic filler.

One reason that I think they last a long time -- I don't do this consec kicking outside -- when playing solo I typically kick inside on carpet. Got a good gym at work, and a well-lit, clean, carpeted basement at home.

When I'm playing outside, and its with other shredders, my bags don't get used alot because they prefer heavier bags. When I'm outside and playing alone, I use different bags to keep my inside-skooling bags nice and clean (I use different Lavers too for the same reason -- this has the same effect on Lavers - they last along time because I play on carpet & grass when solo, and alternate between different pairs...).

As for playing on a daily basis... If only. I'd like to but I'm too lazy.

The specific kicking sequences vary a little bit over the years, but on a month-to-month basis they vary very little. The specific amount of kicks in each sequence vary from day-to-day, sometimes by 50% or more. The list above is a pretty good representation of what I'd call typical, (perhaps a little longer than average on almost half the drills) except that I rarely make it to the cool-down after the speed-consec toes.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 14 Jul 2011 09:57

Einstein.. is that, like, a single dex ripstein?

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 15 Jul 2011 10:37

Muffinman wrote:Einstein.. is that, like, a single dex ripstein?

Ripstein from inside delay

Good posts Jon. It makes me want to school my toe kicks a lot more and see how long I can go while using a more diverse kicking structure.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 16 Jul 2011 13:26

Erik wrote:Einstein.. is that, like, a single dex ripstein?

Ug... bad joke, but actually, very cool name for a move. Wish I'd thought of that years ago.

habitat wrote:makes me want to school my toe kicks a lot more and see how long I can go while using a more diverse kicking structure.

I just take satisfaction in knowing that all my basic kicks are as dependable as anybody could want. Its like knowing that the foundation of your building is all there, that you're not standing on feet of clay. (edit - looking back, I think I assumed long ago that, in competition, I'd probably have to bail from tricks to kicks to keep from dropping. I suppose one of my motivations for mastering kicks was the assumption that kicks were easier than tricks [after all, tricks were worth ADDs and kicks weren't, so by definition kicks must be easier] and that if I messed up my tricks and bailed to kicks, I damn-well didn't want to mess those up too, 'cause they should be easy, and, the ease of kicks should help me RECOVER my control to get back to tricks more quickly -- it never really worked out that way, though, because although my kicks are great, I never really tried to teach myself to get back under control and back into tricks QUICKLY -- I became TOO patient with my kicking). Its mostly fairly easy to master these things, but it takes patience and some effort, but its worth it for the mastery, for the health benefit, and because it can be relaxing/meditative. Then, you'll probably need to use those skills from time to time so as not to lose them. I'm sure, though, that one need not have kicked NEARLY as much as I have to feel mastery of toes, insides, outsides and knees in various combinations.

Jeremy wrote:Getting other people to count is something I've considered, but I wonder how many people would be prepared to do that? I guess I could make sure I attempt it at a footbag tournament where it might be possible to get at least one person to count. I am really only doing it for my own benefit though, so I'll be happy as long as I'm convinced that I got there, regardless of whether my self counting is a robust method or not.

I've been thinking about this... and I think you should NOT do this at a tournament. Even when you're well prepared, fit, and your technique and plan is solid, 100 minutes of continuous kicking is going to leave you pretty well worn-out on the following day. If you did this 10,000 kick rally on the 1st day of a 2 or 3 day tournament, you'd regret it. If you plan to do this on the final day of a tournament, you may already be somewhat worn-out. Basically, I mean -- don't do this at a tournament because, even if you're successful at this, it might otherwise significantly detract from your ability to enjoy freestyling at that tournament. -- On a couple of occasions in the distant past, I actually prepared for the "5-Minute Timed Consecutives" event at a tournament. In Timed Consecs, you get two tries... At both tournaments, Timed Consecs was run very early-on in the schedule. Even though I had done a substantial amount of regular practice, when I was done with the two 5-minute rounds, I felt fine, but the following day I was so sore that it detracted from my fun... And even though Times Consecs are certainly much more intense than just regular-paced consecutive kicking, it was only ten minutes. 10,000 regular consecutive kicks will take roughly ten times that long... You'll be busted the next day, sort of... Do your 5-digit rally when it won't matter that you're busted the next day.

Doing it alone, just for your own satisfaction, is fine and good, but, sooner or later somebody will want to know "what's your record?" and while you may know that it is over 10,000, you might wish that you had a more precise number for your reply...

Consider, if somebody asks what THE record is, you could tell them that its sixty-some-thousand, or you could say "63,326 by Ted Martin - it took nearly 9 hours..." I think that that latter sounds a little better. As for me, I think I want precisely 12,345 kicks, because it nicely emphasizes the point of 5-digits...

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 16 Jul 2011 23:45

Yeah I definitely want to have a specific record

Speaking of which, I had a bit of a different session today. I counted every kick and recorded the results. As an ex-data analyst and science student, I enjoy this kind of thing

Anyway the results were pathetic, I think my worst session since I started, although I have some excuses - mainly that I'd just got back from a 4 hour bushwalk and that I used a brand new bag, that as soon as I started I realised was the same colour as the floor boards. Also I was playing inside in very little space, especially with my girlfriend annoyingly walking around me all the time* - so most of my drops were from getting to close to the edges of the space.

*No doubt she's writing on some internet forum right now about how annoying it was to have me playing footbag

Anyway the key results were;

1753 kicks in total at averages of 58.4 per minute and 125.2 per drop (14 drops in total).

I'm not sure if I'll keep these kinds of records every session, but it will be helpful to do it like this a lot and see real progress. Based purely on the fact that my session tomorrow will be in the morning before I've done any other exercise, and with a different bag, I think I'll quickly see improvement

My strategy at the moment is not to work on specific kicks, but just to kick for the time. Sometimes I find myself in particular patterns, but I don't consciously choose them. When I'm getting much more consistent and getting through the 30 minutes with about 1 or 2 drops every time, maximum, then I might start looking at specific kicking drilling (or I might increase the time).

edit; Obviously I lost a lot of time when dropping the bag - maybe 30 seconds per drop. Also the only time I counted prior to this session (the first session), my record from that session was nearly 800, and I feel like I've beaten that a few times in my later sessions, to put how bad this session was in perspective.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 17 Jul 2011 17:40

Well as predicted today's session was much better, although conditions were nearly identical to last night, except I had natural light instead of energy saving bulb light. I was still feeling a bit sore from yesterdays walk and session, so the results were not amazing, but an improvement.

Key results;

2292 kicks, average 75.1 per minute, 208.4 per drop, 11 drops.

I probably won't keep these records every session, and when I do keep them, I probably won't post about them here most of the time. Just when I think I'm reaching milestones etc. When I have more results I'll post up some graphs

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 18 Jul 2011 05:55

Jeremy wrote:I used a brand new bag, that as soon as I started I realised was the same colour as the floor boards. Also I was playing inside in very little space, especially with my girlfriend annoyingly walking around me all the time* - so most of my drops were from getting to close to the edges of the space.

Yeah, I've already mentioned that brand-new bags are tougher to control. The "Bag Color/Background Color" is an issue for me too, but its been a long time since I've really been bothered by it because its a situation I've accounted for as a matter of habit for a long time. At the gyme, its a very dark blue carpet -- I don't bring my blue bags or very dark colored bags to kick there, I bring my brighly colored (Red & Yellow) or lighly colored (predominantly white) bags. At home, the carpet is nearly white -- I use those blue and/or dark bags that I wouldn't bring to the gym. If I'm going to kick in the park, on the grass, I avoid bringing the blue/green hued bags.

Distractions in the form of wandering people are also unwelcome... My most common problem is other people using the gym and WATCHING TV while they walk on the treadmill. Lately, at least, its just been the news (and commercials too, of course) -- at least the guy who likes to watch ESPN Sport Center and "Pardon the Interruption" isn't there when I am anymore...

Also, move one or two more lamps into your kicking area, damn it! Are you really kicking in a room with just one light-bulb? Even if the bulb is bright enough, I'd figure you must be dealing with a bunch of annoying shadows... All-in-all, do yourself a favor and give yourself some more favorable visual circumstances to play in, if not also a place with less distractions and more space...

Keep at it, and good luck.

PS --- one other of my own observations, one that I'd nearly forgotten about, but remembered almost randomly yesterday --- a heavy bag may be preferable for shred, but when I've done several thousand inside kicks (along with many other kinds of kicks), and I do this regiment of many kicks frequently, the heavy bag combined with the thin surface material of my Lavers will wind up punishing my feet just from the repeated small impacts. At times, as my feet got to hurting just from being repeatedly impacted by a "heavy" bag filled primarily with metal, I've had to change my inside kicks to try to use the side of the thick sole of the shoe to take the impact, rather than what I consider the sweet-spot of the nylon outter material just on/forward from the arch of my foot. I've also gone so far as to stuff tissue into my shoes before a warm-up. Yesterday, for no reason at all, I decided to wear two pairs of socks. This is why I remembered the "injury" associated with kicking a heavy bag too much. I'm not actually suffering from this now, since most bags I use currently are not especially heavy. The two-socks thing yesterday was just on a whim, and I regretted it because my feet were too hot. But, it would almost certainly do the trick if I were using a heavy bag. Anyway, for this reason I recommend a lighter footbag for long runs of consecutive kicking.

drillbit · Post by **drillbit** » 18 Jul 2011 07:32

What gets measured, gets done

drillbit · Post by **drillbit** » 18 Jul 2011 07:37

the talk of kicking has me remembering back in the day before there were ADDs and heavy bags and thin fancy leather.
I do miss the two-panel original and even the mumbus bag.

so, not trying to hijack this thread but the bag used for kicking is important IMO.

is there any bag on the market that someone can reccomend that has thicker leather and some action, that is not a net bag?

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 18 Jul 2011 11:28

drillbit wrote:the talk of kicking has me remembering back in the day before there were ADDs and heavy bags and thin fancy leather.
I do miss the two-panel original and even the mumbus bag.

I had a Mumbus Bailiwick bag, long ago. I haven't really been playing THAT long -- the Mumbus Bailiwick was already something of an antique when I found it for sale in a sporting-goods store. I only bought it because I've always liked the word "bailiwick". I wish I could remember where I'd first heard it...

(I did have an original leather two-panel too, when I was about 10 or 11 -- the original Hacky Sack brand footbag was being promoted with TV commercials briefly, and I asked my parents for one -- it was way harder than it looked on TV, and I lost mine on the first day of summer camp... )

Anyway, for a nice kicking-around bag, I like my "Blister."

http://worldfootbag.com/catalog2/showgr ... y-sack-21-

Its the first bag on the list linked above. Its not really "thick" leather -- its synthetic suede like most good bags today, but the suede is a little thicker than the really nice freestyle bags that are sewn by good footbag players. Its got a little more "action" because the material is a little bit thicker, the bag is somewhat larger than a good "shred" bag, and because the filler is a little bit lighter than a shred bag. My blister, I think, is filled only with plastic pellets. It WOULD be too light if it were the same small size as my other bags, but, due to its large size the weight is pretty nice. It looks to me like the WFA might have removed the all-plastic filled Blister bag from there list, and the BB-Blister is probably heavier than mine (it also doesn't look the same). I recommend you simply CALL the WFA and ask them if they have any of the all-plastic-filled Blisters left. Just because they don't have it listed on-line doesn't mean they don't have any left. The WFA guys (Bruce, Randy, and Peter) have been playing for a long time, and they've played alot of net and alot of hacky sack and alot of freestyle too. You can talk to them and ask them what they recommend...

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 18 Jul 2011 11:40

Outsider wrote:My blister, I think, is filled only with plastic pellets.

You should probably see somebody about that.

LinoSphere · Post by **LinoSphere** » 18 Jul 2011 13:01

this whole thread motivated me to go for some consecutive records again. the only one i ever counted (or remember) was 1100 alternating toe kicks, but i'm pretty sure i've done more using all surfaces (well, insides mostly).
this 5 digit thing certainly sounds appealing! for now, with worlds approaching and freestyle thus being a little more important, i might just throw in one shot at consec kicks after every shred session and see how far i can get wih that...

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 18 Jul 2011 16:55

Can't say I've had any problem with pain due to the weight of the bag.

Re: Shadows - I don't have much problem at night - there are 3 lights in the room, one directly above and 2 to an angle, so I don't have many. It's more of an issue playing during the day (I noticed today), but not too bad because there is so much more light. Artificial lighting in general is a problem because it makes the bag blend in with the floor. I think the other issue when I play inside is that I'm surrounded by many book cases, and I lose the bag a little when I'm facing them, which is a lot of the time.

However I don't really mind playing in harder conditions. I figure at this stage it might hurt my scores but I don't think it will slow down my learning. I think the key is just to play, and not take too much of a break between drops.

I might as well post today's results since I'm posting. Today's are a bit misleading because some plastic at the back of my shoes came loose during the middle of the session and cut into me (enough to draw blood) so I had 3 low drops in a row in the middle before I cut it out - all costing time and lowering the scores. Apart from that section I felt really good and set a new record since I started keeping a record of every kick of 804. I noticed today it was interesting that my mind often wanders off and starts thinking of completely unrelated things, all while I manage to not lose count at all in my head. It doesn't wander for long, and I guess stopping that is the improvement in focus I'm hoping comes from this, but it's kind of cool that you can be essentially consciously carrying out two independent trains of thought at the same time.

Results

2232 kicks. Average 74.4 per minute, 248 per drop, 9 drops.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 18 Jul 2011 18:32

Jeremy wrote:I noticed today it was interesting that my mind often wanders off and starts thinking of completely unrelated things, all while I manage to not lose count at all in my head. It doesn't wander for long, and I guess stopping that is the improvement in focus I'm hoping comes from this, but it's kind of cool that you can be essentially consciously carrying out two independent trains of thought at the same time.

No No NO! Go with it, man. Thats exactly the relaxing-meditative thing starting to work (three trains of thought really -- some concious part of you must concentrate on kicking form, at least a little --- and the automatic counting thing gets so super easy you'll do without effort, but, its still easy to lose count even when its easy and automatic.)

Okay, fine, so, concentrate on your focus, whatever... I like letting my mind wander while I kick and count at the same time. Add some music into that mix. Last night, I listened to the soundtrack of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. I've listened to that many times as I relax and kick and count and think of other things... Its just a jump to the left, and then you step to the right. Put your hands on your hips, and pull your knees in tight. Then its the pelvic thrust, until it drives you insa-a-a-a-ane. Lets do the time warp again!

boyle · Post by **boyle** » 24 Jul 2011 04:01

I think I will try this too. I'm going to be doing some travel in the next few months and don't expect to share too many freestyle circles.

My current record is 1214 which I think I did about 3 years ago...and seeing that I'm not going to Worlds this year, this can be my big thing in footbag...

My usual technique, especially to begin is to do right toe kick>left inside kick....I guess these are my two strongest kicks, but it is best to mix things up, to keep it interesting and also to change the pressures on the different legs.

As for counting I normally count up to each 10, and just in my mind acknwoldege 30, 40, then a bigger spark in my mind for each 100....getting to the 5 figures though, I'm not so sure that way would work as well, but let's see.

The advice from Jon S in this thread has been great and I'm definitely keen to give the 10 000 mark a crack.

boyle · Post by **boyle** » 27 Jul 2011 13:44

So I had my first attempt and I impressed myself, because I broke my own record of kicks on the first go. So I have a new record now of 2015 kicks.

My main strategy was to do 50 of toe>inside and then mix things up a bit on the back 50, then go back to the usual formula for the next round. I also noted that keeping an eye out for the same number (eg 888, 1414) was a good way to keep track of the count on a larger scale.

I think the biggest thing to worry about is getting bored and doing silly things, then dropping it. I also had my shoelace come undone at about 1920 kicks.

I did this with a Hania bag, it's probably had about 3 months of use for freestyle, felt good to kick with. The light wasn't great, I was playing on a bike path by the beach at the Gold Coast, luckily no bikes came through over that time.

I didn't kick with any music, though there was quite a lot of noise as the airport and a freeway were not far away.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 27 Jul 2011 20:59

Nice job, Dan. breaking 2000 on a first try is a great start.

You said that your best kicking pattern is "right toe > left inside..."

If you're going to spend time on going for long strings of kicks, you might as well use that time and effort as an opportunity to practice some other basics. I recommend trying to get your "left toe > right inside" as comfortable and consistent as your "right toe > left inside."

I had a good long rally on Sunday, about 46 minutes (no drops, only one upper-body foul, a kick right into my other sack...), and it occurred to me that the time goes by very quickly for me, I don't get bored doing this, because of those various "combos" that I cycle through, practicing each kicking pattern in turn for only one or two hundred (roughly). I don't get bored because I know I only have to do a couple minutes of any given pattern, and then move on to another pattern for only a couple minutes, and before long a half-hour has flown by while I've worked my way through a dozen patterns of basic kicks.

Try setting some small goals for stuff you don't work on much, like 10 or 20 good consecutive alternating knee kicks, or 40 contacts of inside > op inside > op outside > repeat.

(you shouldn't always aim to go dropless -- its worth the extra effort and the disappointment of some drops to perfect some kinds of kicks that you are less comfortable with -- its still good exercise and good practice, even when you drop a few times, if you just pick the bag back up and go for a few hundred more, and eventually all your basic kicks will be as reliable as "right toe > left inside")

That last pattern, "right inside > left inside > right outside > left inside > right inside > left outside > repeat" is one of my favorites for a couple of reasons --
1 - the slow alternating outside kicks (slow because they have a pair of inside kicks inbetween each outside -- you don't hurry from one outside to the next) seems to gradually loosen up my spine and hips very nicely (the alternating outside kicks cause me to lean right and left -- I feel like I really flex my spine [a little] right and left like a fish beating its tail back and forth to swim [like a fish as opposed to a whale/dolphin -- notice that a whale, like other marine mammals, has a spine really designed to move forward and backward/ up and down, as opposed to a fish/shark, whose spines move side-to-side / left-to-right] -- in my day-to-day activity I might bend my spine forward and backward alot, but not side-to-side much -- this kicking pattern lets me get plenty of the side-to-side motion, and it makes me feel good and loose), and,
2 - the pattern is easier to count because I only count the outside kicks, but can easily keep track of total kicks because for every outside there are two more insides, so 20 outside kicks is 60 total kicks

If I had to use only one kicking pattern to get to 1,000 or 10,000 kicks, this is probably the pattern I'd choose (though one or two hundred alternating toe kicks for every one or two hundred outside kicks would really help to keep the legs from wearing out).

boyle · Post by **boyle** » 28 Jul 2011 05:00

that's the kind of thing I was doing on the "back 50", working on those other patterns.....once I got into a bit of the way through, I was feeling good and decided I wanted to beat my previous record, so went in to the feeling that I was most confident with.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 04 Feb 2012 20:24

Seems like lots of people have bumped up their old favorite topics lately, so here's mine.

Was playing alot last spring and summer, but things got crazy and I basically stopped playing and training my consecs (and everything else) for many months. Circumstances finally turned the corner around the new year (NYFA New Years shreds were a very helpful motivator) so I've been shaking off the rust for the past month.

This past week I only played twice so far, but both times I had a perfect warm-up run, with zero drops and zero upper-body fouls, and basically few-to-no "regaining control" bobbles. About 37 minutes non-stop on Monday, even getting all the way through a pretty good series of timed-consecutive-style toes and a cool-down at the end. On Friday, it was approximate 45 minutes. I felt like I did almost exactly the same pattern of kicks, but it was a brand-new bag (so it was sort of stiff) and it is too light also, so it was harder to control. I definitely actually had to concentrate harder than usual to keep it in control, but I was also concentrating harder because I had recently had one perfect consecutives warm-up session that week and I was in the mood to have another. Again, I even got through a legit series of timed-consecs and a cool-down. When I was done and checked the clock I though I must have mis-remembered the time at which I'd started because I didn't think it could have taken me that much longer to do that series of kicks, and also because I listened to nearly all of one album, Bob Dylan's "Bringing It All Back Home", which I initially THOUGH was about 41 minutes long. When I check again, though, it turned out that the album is 47 minutes long. So, yeah, there was my 45 minutes (I finished half-way through the last song...). I think the extra length of time was mostly caused by that extra-bouncy and lighter bag kicking up HIGHER with most kicks, thus spending longer in the air between contacts. An extra fraction of a second, repeated more than 3000 times, can add a few extra minutes... Interesting. Never measured this simple phenomenon before.

I was doubly proud because the kicking characteristics of those two bags (the Monday bag and the Friday bag) were very different (Monday bag was fairly heavy and very un-bouncy -- already broken-in by at least 10,000 previous [non-consecutive] kicks, and heavy/unbouncy naturally anyway). To have played flawless with two very different bags in the same week felt cool.

I won't be attempting a 5-digit rally any time soon -- these current consec rallys are just my way of warming-up before practicing some freestyle, and a way of getting some light and continuous cardiovascular exercise. Several months of inactivity (at least so far as exercise is concerned) have left me out-of-shape, and I'm more concerned right now with just getting back in shape for the sake of re-acquiring my freestyle skills before the summer competitive season. I'll worry about the 5-digit kicking challenge later. But, after nearly 5 months of inactivity, a couple of flawless warm-ups is a nice reward for a month of regular (if light) work, and a little milestone on my journey back to freestyle and good health.

Oh yeah, also, the year of the dragon has come round again...

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 13 Feb 2012 12:01

Enjoyed that post. Thanks for that, Jon.