Alright i have been wanting to post this for awhile, But wasn't exactly sure how put it into words so here goes...
I have been playing footbag for roughly a year and a half and have a basic foundation of tiltless and some guiltless tricks. The problem is when i started learning guiltless tricks i schooled to many at once, And at this point even though i can hit quite a few tricks i lack consistency in most of the tricks i hit, And therefore have shorter string length then i feel i should have at this point.
So basically what i am asking is...
1. How do you players with huge move sets find the time to train all these tricks, Sets etc?
2. Should i drop a bunch of tricks and sets and focus on a few?
3. If i do drop a bunch of tricks that i already schooled will i lose them or does muscle memory last forever?
Move set management?
Move set management?
Antonio Pirrotta
-
boyle
- Post Master General
- Posts: 3173
- Joined: 19 Sep 2007 23:42
- Location: Canberra, Australia
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Hi Antonio
I think this is an interesting topic. For me, I guess I would say I have like a "mid range" of coverage of different sets (eg I have no problems with some, reasonable with others and there's a couple of sets that I basically can't do at all).
At the moment you are probably worrying too much about guiltless, tiltless, etc. I have been working a bit on breaking my guiltless records etc lately and have found it has had an effect on my ability to just flow in general and think about just having good runs instead.
As for the sets, probably at your stage the best thing to do is try everything and find what is comfortable for you. These are the ones that you are going to be able to do midstring, start of your runs with, and they can give you confidence etc.
Keeping up your tiltless game will also give you a great variety of tricks to do once you've mastered a few sets. Also a couple of small combos that mix some sets could help you learn specific sets. I think every player has their weakness though, it's impossible to be able to hit everything...
It would be great to hear some other's opinions on what is the best option. I think the key though is don't let a low guiltless record stop you from having a good time playing footbag.
I think this is an interesting topic. For me, I guess I would say I have like a "mid range" of coverage of different sets (eg I have no problems with some, reasonable with others and there's a couple of sets that I basically can't do at all).
At the moment you are probably worrying too much about guiltless, tiltless, etc. I have been working a bit on breaking my guiltless records etc lately and have found it has had an effect on my ability to just flow in general and think about just having good runs instead.
As for the sets, probably at your stage the best thing to do is try everything and find what is comfortable for you. These are the ones that you are going to be able to do midstring, start of your runs with, and they can give you confidence etc.
Keeping up your tiltless game will also give you a great variety of tricks to do once you've mastered a few sets. Also a couple of small combos that mix some sets could help you learn specific sets. I think every player has their weakness though, it's impossible to be able to hit everything...
It would be great to hear some other's opinions on what is the best option. I think the key though is don't let a low guiltless record stop you from having a good time playing footbag.
I've been playing 15 years and still don't know how to answer this question. I guess off the top of my head, I'd encourage people to experiment with a variety of concepts, see which ones are the most fun, and then dedicate their time to learning the ones they enjoy the most.
Also remember: no concept is immune to deterioration, just as no concept is ever perfect. Even when you think you have a concept down cold, you need to periodically revisit it to improve it, or at least ensure it doesn't deteriorate too badly.
Also remember: no concept is immune to deterioration, just as no concept is ever perfect. Even when you think you have a concept down cold, you need to periodically revisit it to improve it, or at least ensure it doesn't deteriorate too badly.
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crazylegs32
- Egyptian Footgod
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- Joined: 02 Sep 2005 19:45
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If your sets are good then thats it. Dont concentrate on the delays, get the sets straight. Consistent sets (not too high or low and straight up/ down) is the most important thing to long runs. Thats why I cant do good, my sets stink.
That said not everyone can shred at top levels so dont injure yourself- thats number one.
That said not everyone can shred at top levels so dont injure yourself- thats number one.
Ok.....I dont have enough time to answer this fully nor (like Ken) do I feel like I can
At first I believe that you should master the basic stalls , ie...toe and clipper....... This first thing is crucial .....I could do 100 legovers but when I got advice for JM to change the way I did them ....it actually changed my whole concept of my entire game and the way I performed all tricks.....
then should go through as many different concepts as possible , seeing which ones you have a nac for or which ones you find to be more difficult.
then take those tricks and combine them with other tricks....I think the most important thing though is to find the most effecient and cleanest way to do the tricks so that you are actually trying to reproduce the same motion every single time you perform a certain trick.
Remember , it takes time to go through tricks since there are so many.....revisiting concepts is something that ive done since ive started playing.
as far as the set advice of setting straight up ....this is not true.....each trick may require a different set height or set arc ...it is important to watch how master players perform a specific trick and then to see how that trick is done with various tricks in front of or in back of the trick....I used to try to get all my sets straight up and then my body would have to compensate for the lack of arc and my feet were sliding.......this makes many tricks more difficult.... I could hit 50 ripwalks with a close to straight set but the energy required to do so was double what I put now to perform the same trick......
START HERE !!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4lPDNUb ... ature=plcp
Even if you decide not to play exactly as JM , this advice will help you master the basic concepts and that is what leads to bigger tricks and bigger sets......
after this ....then pick the concepts you like the most and master them so you can use them..... some tricks require maintance and some dont.....it varies between players......I have to do furious sets fairly often to keep consistancy with it, but I can hit a paradox torque or 20 ducking clippers first try without a warm up , maintence or footbag shoes.....if you start and search for clean effortless form ...then you will find your own answers with this....promise......
also read the vasek manual
At first I believe that you should master the basic stalls , ie...toe and clipper....... This first thing is crucial .....I could do 100 legovers but when I got advice for JM to change the way I did them ....it actually changed my whole concept of my entire game and the way I performed all tricks.....
then should go through as many different concepts as possible , seeing which ones you have a nac for or which ones you find to be more difficult.
then take those tricks and combine them with other tricks....I think the most important thing though is to find the most effecient and cleanest way to do the tricks so that you are actually trying to reproduce the same motion every single time you perform a certain trick.
Remember , it takes time to go through tricks since there are so many.....revisiting concepts is something that ive done since ive started playing.
as far as the set advice of setting straight up ....this is not true.....each trick may require a different set height or set arc ...it is important to watch how master players perform a specific trick and then to see how that trick is done with various tricks in front of or in back of the trick....I used to try to get all my sets straight up and then my body would have to compensate for the lack of arc and my feet were sliding.......this makes many tricks more difficult.... I could hit 50 ripwalks with a close to straight set but the energy required to do so was double what I put now to perform the same trick......
START HERE !!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4lPDNUb ... ature=plcp
Even if you decide not to play exactly as JM , this advice will help you master the basic concepts and that is what leads to bigger tricks and bigger sets......
after this ....then pick the concepts you like the most and master them so you can use them..... some tricks require maintance and some dont.....it varies between players......I have to do furious sets fairly often to keep consistancy with it, but I can hit a paradox torque or 20 ducking clippers first try without a warm up , maintence or footbag shoes.....if you start and search for clean effortless form ...then you will find your own answers with this....promise......
also read the vasek manual
SHRED HARD!
@Daniel: Ya i guess i have been neglecting my tiltless game a bit lately. Thanks for making me realize this, Ill try to not get so caught up on going guiltless.
@Ken: Really appreciate the reply, I have prob watched 80% of your vids and hope to play as well as you are when i reach 30+. I have trimmed down my move set a bit and focused on what i actually like.
@Crazylegs: Thanks for the reply. I realize the importance of straight sets for a lot of moves. I find the longer the string the less consistent my sets get due to lack of energy/concentration.
@Mark: Thank you for the very informative reply. I had watched Jorden's vid once before, But had convinced myself that i had already mastered that stuff even though my form still needs a lot of work which means i probably haven't. I will deff focus on working on effortless form and tuning basics instead of rushing guiltless.
@Ken: Really appreciate the reply, I have prob watched 80% of your vids and hope to play as well as you are when i reach 30+. I have trimmed down my move set a bit and focused on what i actually like.
@Crazylegs: Thanks for the reply. I realize the importance of straight sets for a lot of moves. I find the longer the string the less consistent my sets get due to lack of energy/concentration.
@Mark: Thank you for the very informative reply. I had watched Jorden's vid once before, But had convinced myself that i had already mastered that stuff even though my form still needs a lot of work which means i probably haven't. I will deff focus on working on effortless form and tuning basics instead of rushing guiltless.
Antonio Pirrotta
Hey Antonio,
Ive been playing for almost 3 years now and I like to think my core tricks and foundation moves are highly refined but when I began learning sets a few months ago I was having similar questions. I can go tiltless fairly well although I consider myself a noob so here's some advice you can take it it leave it
When practicing, for instance, lets say atomic down (legbeater) i think of the compound trick as two separate movements. What i mean is, that when i practice drilling legbeater i think if the atomic set, THEN the butterfly component.
However, when i throw atomic down into a dense run, I tend to think about the clipper you will catch with as the bag leaves your toe and even before the first dex. When you incorporate sets in your game it's easy and fun to get carried away trying new things, but even in my practicing, I made a distinction between "drilling" and "shredding". The former meaning hand catches are justified, and the ladder meaning I'm going to try as hard as I can not to hand catch.
Another bit of advice that was helpful for me was to practice "rewind" motions, for example-drop in butterfly to stepping hand catch, or drop in mirage to atomic hand catch.
Cheers
-A
Ive been playing for almost 3 years now and I like to think my core tricks and foundation moves are highly refined but when I began learning sets a few months ago I was having similar questions. I can go tiltless fairly well although I consider myself a noob so here's some advice you can take it it leave it
When practicing, for instance, lets say atomic down (legbeater) i think of the compound trick as two separate movements. What i mean is, that when i practice drilling legbeater i think if the atomic set, THEN the butterfly component.
However, when i throw atomic down into a dense run, I tend to think about the clipper you will catch with as the bag leaves your toe and even before the first dex. When you incorporate sets in your game it's easy and fun to get carried away trying new things, but even in my practicing, I made a distinction between "drilling" and "shredding". The former meaning hand catches are justified, and the ladder meaning I'm going to try as hard as I can not to hand catch.
Another bit of advice that was helpful for me was to practice "rewind" motions, for example-drop in butterfly to stepping hand catch, or drop in mirage to atomic hand catch.
Cheers
-A
\m/ichigan shreds
The key with that situation is to know who you are.
that sounds weird, let me explain it.
Obivously everything i will say in there is based on my perception, especially the name i'll say has exemple.
First of all, i think it depends of why you play footbag. Do you play to be the best? Or do you play to have fun? These 2 questions elad to two different way to train.
I used to train really hard to be as good as i can be. I was drilling a lot. Like doing 500 pixie set per session or whatever. Because my gaol was to play as hard as i could.
Then, the game start to loost interest to my eye, so i decided to play more for fun. Not doing like 5000 drills, just trying thing i felt like every session. Doing combos, string, whatever was fun for me.
These are 2 ways to train. I would say the 1st one, from my point of view, sound more like an Anssi training. The second one would sound more like a Jorden/Evan training.
Also, something important to know is that training a move also improve other move. Exemple : for me, getting good at quantums helped for barraging set. Or getting good at far illsuions can help for barfly. These are not scientific theory, but my feeling is that the best you get at the game, the more you can do easily. I suspect that pro level player might not have spent like 2 months of hardcore training on each tricks, because getting good a like 2-3 tricks make them better at an other one.
So yah... Their isn't a realy answer to your question, but i would, personnly, recommand to do whateverr seems fun to you. Unless you want to be THE world champ, just play for fun. You'll get better with the time, you'll experience less frustration toward the game...
Hope this help a little bit.
Mat
that sounds weird, let me explain it.
Obivously everything i will say in there is based on my perception, especially the name i'll say has exemple.
First of all, i think it depends of why you play footbag. Do you play to be the best? Or do you play to have fun? These 2 questions elad to two different way to train.
I used to train really hard to be as good as i can be. I was drilling a lot. Like doing 500 pixie set per session or whatever. Because my gaol was to play as hard as i could.
Then, the game start to loost interest to my eye, so i decided to play more for fun. Not doing like 5000 drills, just trying thing i felt like every session. Doing combos, string, whatever was fun for me.
These are 2 ways to train. I would say the 1st one, from my point of view, sound more like an Anssi training. The second one would sound more like a Jorden/Evan training.
Also, something important to know is that training a move also improve other move. Exemple : for me, getting good at quantums helped for barraging set. Or getting good at far illsuions can help for barfly. These are not scientific theory, but my feeling is that the best you get at the game, the more you can do easily. I suspect that pro level player might not have spent like 2 months of hardcore training on each tricks, because getting good a like 2-3 tricks make them better at an other one.
So yah... Their isn't a realy answer to your question, but i would, personnly, recommand to do whateverr seems fun to you. Unless you want to be THE world champ, just play for fun. You'll get better with the time, you'll experience less frustration toward the game...
Hope this help a little bit.
Mat
Hey Mark, could you share his advice? I feel like I do most of my tricks with more energy than necessary.Jazzkid wrote:when I got advice for JM to change the way I did them ....it actually changed my whole concept of my entire game and the way I performed all tricks.....
Also, I agree with this. I've gone whole years without playing and practically not lost any aptitude with certain tricks/sets, but others require me to constantly practice.Jazzkid wrote:some tricks require maintance and some dont.....it varies between players......I have to do furious sets fairly often to keep consistancy with it, but I can hit a paradox torque or 20 ducking clippers first try without a warm up , maintence or footbag shoes
Muffinman wrote:Hey Mark, could you share his advice? I feel like I do most of my tricks with more energy than necessary.Jazzkid wrote:when I got advice for JM to change the way I did them ....it actually changed my whole concept of my entire game and the way I performed all tricks.....
Also, I agree with this. I've gone whole years without playing and practically not lost any aptitude with certain tricks/sets, but others require me to constantly practice.Jazzkid wrote:some tricks require maintance and some dont.....it varies between players......I have to do furious sets fairly often to keep consistancy with it, but I can hit a paradox torque or 20 ducking clippers first try without a warm up , maintence or footbag shoes
Ok.....let me try to explain
Before I sent a video to Jorden , I could 50-100 no problem, but was doing them with WAY to much energy and not enough precision. When doing a legover..its not the same exact legover that you do when hit spinning ducking legover....one requires less effort and lets you hop off of your support leg to perform the trick, so lust a little legover with making it easy as possible is more than enough.....you only take away energy and add unnesssasary movement if you do any more.....so now with a legover im not considering dlo and the legover i would do if i was going to hit dlo, im just hitting legover......It doesnt matter if you can hit 100 legovers, you just need 10 correct ones.
Some of the unnessaray movement that players just"happen" to do that becomes associated with their "style" can be an advantage or a dissadvantige to them.... for example....When I started to do mirage , I would do the dex so EXTRA HUGE that it was ridiculous and way over board for the trick...., but years later when trying swirling mobius this random opening of my hips on a mirage helped me clear the bag .....
Another thing that REALLY changed my outlook on the game was my clipper....
When doing inside kicks, I always tried to kick the bag straight up and down and just rotate my hips. Even though this may or may not be the easiest way to do inside kicks, it doesnt show a crucial skill need, ...the ability to arc a set and use this to your advantage in stalling is important..
If you stand facing one direction and do alternating inside kicks with an arc that puts the bag exactly where it belongs, you get to feel the same position that the bag should be set in when doing alternating clippers.....
Tricks like ripwalk require a slight arc instead of setting up and down this way ..."your playing the bag , instead of the bag playing you"JM . I also find that certain tricks require a straighter set.. Basically think about where the bag has to go and put it there
So as players we have to find the most consitant , clean, minimal effort, precise way to execute a trick or link...
I was setting everything straight and now I realize what he was talking about...
I hope this offers some input
SHRED HARD!
It's important to understand that no trick is ever complete. The footbag is not a part of you, therefore you can never fully understand its properties.
No trick is ever completely mastered. After 11 years I'm still trying to improve my kicks. And toe stall. And clipper. I train these individually every time I play.
The only way to reach a high level is to build your pyramid. The only way to have a structurally sound game is to lay down each block on a level before moving on to the next. It is possible to build up one side and have that area structurally sound, but after a while there will be a glass ceiling. The only way to reach the top of the pyramid is to build around the perimeter and try to divide your time evenly between the different areas of the game. Learn everything.
Note the bottom layer has the most blocks, so the most time will be spent on this layer. Fill in all the gaps in this layer and the sky's the limit.
It is reasonable to take 10-15 minutes each session to focus on this bottom layer. Don't skip levels or jump ahead. Always start sessions with the easiest tricks and work your way up. The slower the progression into the harder tricks the better.
For instance, I recommend learning every type of kick and learning stalls on every part of the body before trying to master tiltless.
Having no holes or gaps is key.
There's no point in practicing moves where 2 or more elements are needed that aren't in your game yet. That's laying a brick on a level where there aren't any supporting bricks below it. Doesn't help.
Add 1 element at a time to preexisting tricks in your game. Learn each element separately then combine them. Moving on to the more advanced trick in a category should feel natural and not forced. There is no rush, no time frame, no deadline, no schedule.
The best way to make sure the pyramid is being built solidly is to say often "The easiest trick(s) that I don't know how to do is ______". That is the trick(s) that should be worked on in the next session. Most of the time this is a neglected trick on the flipside. This trick will likely be frustrating to work on because you feel that you should have it already. It is not always fun this way, but it is the only way to achieve a complete well-rounded game. Filling gaps means progressing faster. Much of the session time will be spent trying to even out both sides. This is necessary for a symmetrical balanced game.
Style and/or specialization comes from adding personal touches AFTER a solid foundation has been laid and correct form/posture has been established. Be careful not to make the mistake of specializing too early. That's more like a game of Jenga than a pyramid.
The more time spent repeating a move the stronger the muscle memory. Generally after playing a few years it takes only a week or two of solid playing to get your old level back after a long break (at least in my experience). The body seems to have good retention for these movements.
Jorden
No trick is ever completely mastered. After 11 years I'm still trying to improve my kicks. And toe stall. And clipper. I train these individually every time I play.
The only way to reach a high level is to build your pyramid. The only way to have a structurally sound game is to lay down each block on a level before moving on to the next. It is possible to build up one side and have that area structurally sound, but after a while there will be a glass ceiling. The only way to reach the top of the pyramid is to build around the perimeter and try to divide your time evenly between the different areas of the game. Learn everything.
Note the bottom layer has the most blocks, so the most time will be spent on this layer. Fill in all the gaps in this layer and the sky's the limit.
It is reasonable to take 10-15 minutes each session to focus on this bottom layer. Don't skip levels or jump ahead. Always start sessions with the easiest tricks and work your way up. The slower the progression into the harder tricks the better.
For instance, I recommend learning every type of kick and learning stalls on every part of the body before trying to master tiltless.
Having no holes or gaps is key.
There's no point in practicing moves where 2 or more elements are needed that aren't in your game yet. That's laying a brick on a level where there aren't any supporting bricks below it. Doesn't help.
Add 1 element at a time to preexisting tricks in your game. Learn each element separately then combine them. Moving on to the more advanced trick in a category should feel natural and not forced. There is no rush, no time frame, no deadline, no schedule.
The best way to make sure the pyramid is being built solidly is to say often "The easiest trick(s) that I don't know how to do is ______". That is the trick(s) that should be worked on in the next session. Most of the time this is a neglected trick on the flipside. This trick will likely be frustrating to work on because you feel that you should have it already. It is not always fun this way, but it is the only way to achieve a complete well-rounded game. Filling gaps means progressing faster. Much of the session time will be spent trying to even out both sides. This is necessary for a symmetrical balanced game.
Style and/or specialization comes from adding personal touches AFTER a solid foundation has been laid and correct form/posture has been established. Be careful not to make the mistake of specializing too early. That's more like a game of Jenga than a pyramid.
The more time spent repeating a move the stronger the muscle memory. Generally after playing a few years it takes only a week or two of solid playing to get your old level back after a long break (at least in my experience). The body seems to have good retention for these movements.
Jorden
Jorden Moir
+1 to Jorden.
For some practical advise, when I train I tend to drill particular components, but I do so while using variety. So for example one session (or part of session) I might focus on whirls, but that will include stepping and blurry whirls, spinning whirls, pixie whirls etc. Another session, I might drill pixies, but this will include most pixie>down time component moves.
By doing this, you can focus on particular moves or components while still at least doing a little bit of lots of other components. This is something that I got from Ales Zelinka and you see the Czech Dictators crew do it in a lot of their old videos.
The other thing I do is that when I want to drill a particular more complex component or move, I start by drilling all the components, including components that are not directly linked - for example I always drill whirls and then symp whirls and symp whirling sets, and quantum sets, before I drill furious sets. I probably don't spend as much time on them as I would if I were just drilling those sets, but going through the foundation steps to a move or component is always helpful I find, and again leads to keeping variety at least "in touch."
For some practical advise, when I train I tend to drill particular components, but I do so while using variety. So for example one session (or part of session) I might focus on whirls, but that will include stepping and blurry whirls, spinning whirls, pixie whirls etc. Another session, I might drill pixies, but this will include most pixie>down time component moves.
By doing this, you can focus on particular moves or components while still at least doing a little bit of lots of other components. This is something that I got from Ales Zelinka and you see the Czech Dictators crew do it in a lot of their old videos.
The other thing I do is that when I want to drill a particular more complex component or move, I start by drilling all the components, including components that are not directly linked - for example I always drill whirls and then symp whirls and symp whirling sets, and quantum sets, before I drill furious sets. I probably don't spend as much time on them as I would if I were just drilling those sets, but going through the foundation steps to a move or component is always helpful I find, and again leads to keeping variety at least "in touch."
This is a topic I have been struggling to figure out since I started seriously kicking a little less than a year ago. I would say learning new concepts is a strength of mine. Mastering them is a different story. I have spread myself too thin and thus far neglected to significantly improve my execution of even the most basic tiltless moves since the time I first learned to hit them at all. So right now I am left with a wide variety of concepts I can only do with mediocre success. I am lucky enough to have a very active club to play with, but the desire to quickly catch up to our guiltless players is probably more detrimental to my practice habits than beneficial.
The logic behind Jorden and Jeremy's last two posts is very intuitive -- maybe even obvious -- but hearing it articulated well is helpful. Maintaining the self-discipline and patience to keep all of this in mind while practicing can be trying. For an amateur player like myself it is very relieving/motivating to hear good players' reminders that getting good isn't a race. So for that: thank you.
The logic behind Jorden and Jeremy's last two posts is very intuitive -- maybe even obvious -- but hearing it articulated well is helpful. Maintaining the self-discipline and patience to keep all of this in mind while practicing can be trying. For an amateur player like myself it is very relieving/motivating to hear good players' reminders that getting good isn't a race. So for that: thank you.
Jorden mentioned something that I feel is very important .....the constant touching up of fundamentals is crucial ... And The bottom start of the Pyrimad needs to be strong, maintained , and occasionally rebuilt ...
This is similair to something master jazz musician told me ...
He said that if you take any person who has mastered Basic harmony and someone who hasn't ....the obvious difference will show in their quick execution of simple major and minor traids , and basic mastery of arpeggios, scales, and patterns.
Sometimes ...in music ..if I only have a short time to warm up before a gig , I work my most basic components , because that is what I will build my improvisation off of ....the difference for me with music and footbag is that just listening to a cd before the gig can tighten up my basics mentally and with my ear to be warmed up , but watching a shred video may help me focus but my legs will still require 20 min of warm up before I can play at my top level...
In both footbag and music ...teachers speed things up but the students willingness to move forward ( even if it means feeling like your going backward ) is crucial
This is similair to something master jazz musician told me ...
He said that if you take any person who has mastered Basic harmony and someone who hasn't ....the obvious difference will show in their quick execution of simple major and minor traids , and basic mastery of arpeggios, scales, and patterns.
Sometimes ...in music ..if I only have a short time to warm up before a gig , I work my most basic components , because that is what I will build my improvisation off of ....the difference for me with music and footbag is that just listening to a cd before the gig can tighten up my basics mentally and with my ear to be warmed up , but watching a shred video may help me focus but my legs will still require 20 min of warm up before I can play at my top level...
In both footbag and music ...teachers speed things up but the students willingness to move forward ( even if it means feeling like your going backward ) is crucial
SHRED HARD!