Downtime . . . and the preoccupation with it

[Senor Grommet]

1) What is downtime?
2) what parts of a move must be completed during downtime for the move to be considered downtime?
3) Does downtime look better than a move completed half uptime and half downtime?
4) I think downtime-ness is very related to the concept of what is "stylie" and I think that this notion is wrong. What do you think?

Grace me with your knowledgeable answers please, and try to address all questions (if you so wish)

[Senor Grommet]

this is a snippet of a conversation I had about style with a friend of mine:


Senor Grommet: can you hit drifter swirl?
Senor Grommet: brbr
Mephisto0670: hmm
Mephisto0670: well my thing with drifter swirl is most people seem to hit it half uptime
Mephisto0670: and i hate that
Mephisto0670: its against my philosophy
Mephisto0670: it has to be all downtime
Mephisto0670: ill give it a shot
Senor Grommet: thats a dumb way to think about it
Senor Grommet: imo
Senor Grommet: some moves arent meant for downtime only, or uptime only
Senor Grommet: for example
Senor Grommet: when you hit your paradox torques
Mephisto0670: si
Senor Grommet: do you wait until the bag is at its peak before lifting your leg to start the dex?
Mephisto0670: no
Senor Grommet: no you dont
Mephisto0670: but the bag has already peaked when i start my dex
Senor Grommet: you bring your leg up as the bag is rising
Senor Grommet: no
Mephisto0670: that is what is in question
Senor Grommet: your dex starts when your leg rises
Mephisto0670: oh so i just quasi set my torques eh
Mephisto0670: lol
Senor Grommet: when you paradox whrl
Mephisto0670: no
Mephisto0670: i usually drop it
Mephisto0670: lol
Mephisto0670: jk go ahead
Senor Grommet: do you wait intil the bag is on its way down before you start to move your hips in position or raise your knee/lower leg?
Mephisto0670: no
Senor Grommet: no
Senor Grommet: you do that in prep for the dex
Mephisto0670: the pivot comes as soon as possible
Mephisto0670: but im talking DEX
Mephisto0670: not preperation
Senor Grommet: your "dex" starts before the actual dex starts
Mephisto0670: for me the dex is when the dex is completed
Senor Grommet: hjow can you separate the two?
Senor Grommet: okay
Mephisto0670: mainly i think it looks sloppy in moves like say
Mephisto0670: DLO
Senor Grommet: so when id the dex actually cpmpleted?
Mephisto0670: i HATE the half uptime dlos
Senor Grommet: when your leg touches the ground?
Mephisto0670: i think they are SOO ugly
Mephisto0670: so its like
Mephisto0670: when i do a dlo
Mephisto0670: from clip
Senor Grommet: i want to see a vid
Mephisto0670: i set, plant both legs, maybe even wait a split second
Mephisto0670: and THEN do it
Mephisto0670: same with my symp whirls
Mephisto0670: i set about waist height, wait, and do it on the way down
Mephisto0670: unlike most peoples
Mephisto0670: and speaking of video
Senor Grommet: but i fail to see how that helps your game
Mephisto0670: ill get some shit on vid soon hopefully
Mephisto0670: maybe next session
Senor Grommet: except for making that 1 move look good in the eyes of only you
Mephisto0670: and it helps my game but adding style
Mephisto0670: and concious choices
Mephisto0670: rather than doing whats easiest
Mephisto0670: but yea
Senor Grommet: but it hurts your links
Mephisto0670: i was trying to remember the wierd moves you wanted to see
Mephisto0670: one was the reverse eggbeater (miraging pickup)
Mephisto0670: and maybe the downtime backside omelette
Mephisto0670: and torquescrew
Mephisto0670: was there any other ones
Mephisto0670: maybe reverse swirling blender
Senor Grommet: i dont reember me asking for those
Senor Grommet: haha
Mephisto0670: oh
Senor Grommet: but i dont remember much
Mephisto0670: well i do
Mephisto0670: lol
Mephisto0670: hmm
Mephisto0670: anything else
Mephisto0670: that you wanna see
Mephisto0670: lol
Senor Grommet: bubba pdx mirage
Mephisto0670: swifter i will try
Mephisto0670: but i will try it downtime
Senor Grommet: well, ill try swifter too
Senor Grommet: but itll be half uptime
Mephisto0670: i wont do it halfway
Mephisto0670: thats just me
Mephisto0670: it was a decision i made a long time ago
Senor Grommet: i dont think it is very possible completely downtime
Mephisto0670: and it was one of my earliest stylistic decisions
Mephisto0670: one of the only moves i dont do that way is
Senor Grommet: but what is "downtime" to you?
Mephisto0670: symp reverse whirling swirl
Senor Grommet: just that the dexes have to be completed while the bag is on its way down?
Mephisto0670: to me dowtime means it can be done from a set higher that your legs/ can be done after planting both legs
Mephisto0670: though neither of those are necessary
Mephisto0670: its that you would have the CONTROL to be able to plant (in effect waiting to start the dex) and then completeing the move
Senor Grommet: neither of those deals with the bag falling
Mephisto0670: well they kinda do
Senor Grommet: i dont buy it
Senor Grommet: nope
Mephisto0670: well then dont do it
Senor Grommet: i can plant both legs and have the bag still rising
Mephisto0670: i dont ask you to buy it
Mephisto0670: well yea after the bag is falling
Mephisto0670: blah
Mephisto0670: i know what i mean
Mephisto0670: and if you saw my moves you would know what i meant
Mephisto0670: and you probably do
Senor Grommet: yeah, im sure but i just want you to convince me
Mephisto0670: but youre just gonna harass me anyhow
Senor Grommet: but i know
Mephisto0670: lol
Mephisto0670: ok
Mephisto0670: well
Senor Grommet: it wont happen
Mephisto0670: yea the bag falling is kinda important
Mephisto0670: for me
Senor Grommet: okay, so one more thing then
Mephisto0670: the dexes dont start until its paused
Mephisto0670: or after
Mephisto0670: what
Senor Grommet: if you do all of the prep work for the dex as the bag is on the way up, and then do only the dex on the way down, is that downtime?
Mephisto0670: i would say so
Mephisto0670: prepwork/footwork is not a dex
Senor Grommet: okay
Mephisto0670: so in my mind is irrelevant to the question
Mephisto0670: so yea
Mephisto0670: thats about it
Mephisto0670: some moves i particularly try to remember this on are
Mephisto0670: whirl
Mephisto0670: and blender
Mephisto0670: alot of people (ALOT)
Mephisto0670: do their blenders simple
Mephisto0670: and not good simple
Mephisto0670: "start dex asap" simple
Mephisto0670: you know the difference im sure
Mephisto0670: so i set
Mephisto0670: plant the setting foot
Mephisto0670: and only after the setting foot has planted do i start the dex
Mephisto0670: in both whirl and blender
Senor Grommet: but will you ever link blurry whirls?
Mephisto0670: what the hell does that mean
Mephisto0670: with the way my stepping is right now
Mephisto0670: not any time soon
Mephisto0670:
Mephisto0670: but why would this cause me a problem
Mephisto0670: in linking blurry whirls?
Mephisto0670: if anything this strengthens links
Mephisto0670: by alot
Mephisto0670: think about it
Senor Grommet: i dont know
Senor Grommet: its like
Mephisto0670: who ahs a better chance of hitting food processor
Mephisto0670: someone who can only do their blenders half uptime
Senor Grommet: if you wait till the last minute for move 1, then move 2 is harder to complete
Mephisto0670: or someone who does them entirely downtime
Mephisto0670: i see youre point but
Senor Grommet: when trying hard links, its best to leave as much time for the start of move#2
Mephisto0670: i think thats sloppy
Mephisto0670: but thats me
Mephisto0670: look at big add
Senor Grommet: does vasek do sloppy blurry whirls?
Mephisto0670: not at all
Mephisto0670: neither does chad
Senor Grommet: chad preps before
Mephisto0670: man i was watching a vid of one of his in slo mo today
Mephisto0670: so beautiful
Mephisto0670: chad PREPS before
Mephisto0670: but i dont see how this move can even be in question
Mephisto0670: its nearly impossible to do a blurry whirl all uptime
Senor Grommet: i know that
Mephisto0670: ok
Mephisto0670: soi whats the argument
Mephisto0670: lol
Senor Grommet: i was relating blurry whirl to the fact that the more time you have in between the completion of the first and the start of the second, the more likely you are to be able to complete the second
Mephisto0670: i think thats relative
Mephisto0670: im not talking about doing the whirl at the last possible second
Senor Grommet: are you able to stop your blenders dead cold onyour foot?
Mephisto0670: im talking about making sure you arent doing the whirl in a sloppy quick manner while the bag is halfway on the way up just to make it easy
Mephisto0670: yes i am
Mephisto0670: pretty good actually
Mephisto0670: why
Senor Grommet: can you step from them?
Mephisto0670: not yet but soon
Mephisto0670: i have in the past
Mephisto0670: i can step out of most anything though
Senor Grommet: have you ever tried a half uptime blender?
Mephisto0670: yes
Mephisto0670: thats how i started
Senor Grommet: dso you think you could step from it?
Mephisto0670: i COULD step from either
Mephisto0670: but i would rather step from a downtime one
Mephisto0670: its basically
Senor Grommet: yes, which would be easier?
Mephisto0670: better question
Mephisto0670: whihc would look better
Mephisto0670: because in my mind thats the primary question
Senor Grommet: well, if you cant hit the combo, it doesnt matter which looks better; so lets take the link: pdx blender>blury whirl>stepping whirl
Mephisto0670: this is a matter of style, not of ease
Mephisto0670: ok
Mephisto0670: first off you cant do the pdx blender in the way im saying i dont like
Mephisto0670: because its pdx
Mephisto0670: thats the point actually is thoroughness
Mephisto0670: doing your pdx blenders and your normal ones the same
Mephisto0670: doing your ps whirls and your symp whirls the same
Mephisto0670: ya know
Senor Grommet: for YOU to hit the first two moves, what would have to happen?

Mephisto0670: hmm
Mephisto0670: work on my blenders alot more
Mephisto0670: lol
Mephisto0670: but id have to step out of a blender
Senor Grommet: explain what would need to happen
Senor Grommet: meaning as you're hitting the combo
Mephisto0670: id need to have control over my blender foot
Senor Grommet: not the practice you would need
Mephisto0670: enough to be able to control the set after it
Senor Grommet: why dont you have it?

Mephisto0670: because i never drill blenders
Senor Grommet: and so you need more time?
Mephisto0670: so therefore i never drilled pdx blenders
Mephisto0670: more time for what
Senor Grommet: how will you achieve control?

Mephisto0670: by working on my form
Mephisto0670: and practice
Mephisto0670: no offense but i dont really get what the hell youre getting at here
Mephisto0670: lol
Senor Grommet: can you set a blurry whirl from a clipper set that doesnt move?
Mephisto0670: you mean
Mephisto0670: a paused set?
Mephisto0670: or you mean like not moving my foot at all
Senor Grommet: yeah
Mephisto0670: paused?
Mephisto0670: ive done it before
Mephisto0670: a few times
Mephisto0670: why
Senor Grommet: okay
Senor Grommet: is it easier to set bl whirl from a clipper that has gone V and then ^ ?
Mephisto0670: si
Senor Grommet: so what im saying is that perform ing th dex quicker allows more time for footbag cushioning
Senor Grommet: which allows the footbag to be set better
Senor Grommet: for the second more
Senor Grommet: move
Mephisto0670: yea
Mephisto0670: brb
Senor Grommet: and, at least for me, the easiest way to achieve more time for the proper cushioning of the footbag (which in turn allows for a better set) is a more quickly completed dex
Senor Grommet: thus, I will complete that dex as quickly as possible in order so that the set for my next move better allows me to complete the following move, and so on . . .
Mephisto0670: ok back
Mephisto0670: i think youre missing the point
Mephisto0670: i agree it would be easier
Mephisto0670: loads easier
Mephisto0670: but in my opinion
Mephisto0670: it wouldnt look half as nice
Mephisto0670: ive been becomming increasingly preoccupied with style
Mephisto0670: and that is the primary reason for many of my decisions
Senor Grommet: yeah
Senor Grommet: i know
Mephisto0670: i should also add that i think getting the proper cushioning in a downtime blender is just another matter of good form
Mephisto0670: look at vasek
Senor Grommet: and i guess it all depends on what your footbag goals are
Mephisto0670: spinning blender>food proceessor>stepping something
Mephisto0670: yea it does
Mephisto0670: i think style is going to become much more important in the future
Senor Grommet: but it also depends on the way your body is built
Mephisto0670: its already more important than it was
Senor Grommet: i dont think so
Mephisto0670: i think anyone can have a good style regardless of build
Senor Grommet: explain how
Mephisto0670: they wont be the same
Mephisto0670: how what
Mephisto0670: how style will be more important?
Mephisto0670: everyone can hit the same shit
Mephisto0670: its getting easier
Mephisto0670: people are comprehending and understanding much more
Senor Grommet: not more important
Senor Grommet: how style has already become more important
Mephisto0670: oh well people bring it up all the time
Senor Grommet: haha
Senor Grommet: whoops
Mephisto0670: yta know
Mephisto0670: and people in general are starting to comment on it alot more
Mephisto0670: and ask for help on style as well as "tricks"
Mephisto0670: hell i could be wrong but thats MY reality
Senor Grommet: but when the dex is done is not "style"
Mephisto0670: sure it is
Mephisto0670: when how
Senor Grommet: its just one aspect of "style"
Senor Grommet: there are 20
Senor Grommet: ans youve picked out just one
Mephisto0670: i never said it was the only thing i concentrate on
Senor Grommet: for example
Mephisto0670: it just happens to be what we're taling about
Senor Grommet: you said you are preoccupied
Senor Grommet: i realize
Mephisto0670: i am preoccupied with STYLE
Mephisto0670: not with any single aspect of it
Senor Grommet: what about the way your arms are positioned in the air when you perform a move?
Senor Grommet: are they symmetrical?
Mephisto0670: smoothness, move selection, upper body
Senor Grommet: how are your wrists bent?
Senor Grommet: do your hands curl?
Mephisto0670: and actually i find it very interesting that you bring up arms
Senor Grommet: are the toes on your planted foot pointed directly forward?
Mephisto0670: ive recently been watching flemenco videos
Senor Grommet: or to the side?
Mephisto0670: in hopes of learning something more graceful to do with my arms
Mephisto0670:
Mephisto0670: hmm
Mephisto0670: toes
Mephisto0670: never thought about that
Mephisto0670: ill pay attention to it now though
Mephisto0670: actually theyre usually both pointed foward for toe moves
Mephisto0670: parallel
Senor Grommet: and how about the way you toes m=point on your clipper foot?
Senor Grommet: are they straight ahead?
Senor Grommet: or off to the side a bit?

Senor Grommet: and the face you make while shredding?
Senor Grommet: is your brow furrowed?

[FlexThis]

[Muffinman]

i totally agree with trevorr.
swifter has to be completely downtime. otherwise it is muted blurry swirl (the way penske does it).

[jhibbs]

for me, this pretty much sums it up.

Senor Grommet: have you ever tried a half uptime blender?
Mephisto0670: yes
Mephisto0670: thats how i started
Senor Grommet: do you think you could step from it?
Mephisto0670: i COULD step from either
Mephisto0670: but i would rather step from a downtime one
Mephisto0670: its basically
Senor Grommet: yes, which would be easier?
Mephisto0670: better question
Mephisto0670: which would look better?

I think the real underlying question here, is about the awareness of style, and if it's some unattainable thing that you either have or you dont, or if parts of it can be recognized and broken down.

I daresay everyone here would agree there is an element of "style" in the game, after ruling out move selection, and that, however little many of us would admit it, there is good and bad style. So what, EXACTLY, makes these movements look better? I think that a clear seperation between uptime and downtime elements is a very nice addition and often coincides with good timing and smooth movements. Anyone care to add what they believe makes good style?

[james]

Doing core moves in uptime is sloppy and easy. Uptime should be used only for sets and a few moves with muted sets in them, such as whirring swirl. Whirring swirl cannot be completed only in downtime, it is a hybrid move. I would actually rather hit a whirling same whirling swirl than a whirring swirl, but I guess whirring swirl has a certain beauty to it when it's muted. But when basic core moves are done with uptime it is nasty. It is less skillful.
Jeremy you said that in order to have a better chance to hit the next move you need as much time as possible so you should complete the first move as fast as possible. This is not true. It will encourage sloppy play. Doing core moves in downtime requires more skill and more control. You can't do uptime moves out of sets. That's the whole point of differentiating between uptime and downtime. You have moves, and you have sets; you combine the two to make composite moves. Then there are the exceptions which need uptime to be completed, such as whirring swirl and reverse barraging legover (unless you have extremely fast legs...).
It is a matter of style however. Some moves look ok using uptime when they don't have to, such as clipper set symp whirls which are neat midstring. On the whole though I say what doesn't need uptime, should not use it. The following moves IMO look better and take more skill to do in downtime : whirl, drifter, torque/flux, paradon, dlo, eggbeater, blender/dyno, and any other core move i'm forgetting.
As to the definition of uptime and downtime, as specifically as you want it well...hmm. Forget all this preparation nonsense, it's really quite simple: Don't start the move until your setting leg has planted.

Note: I don't think I've EVER seen vasek use uptime when he doesn't have to, and we can all attest to his control and mastery.

[Senor Grommet]

Good arguments James!
You said, "Don't start the move until your setting leg has planted." Does this mean dont start the
dex until the leg is planted, or don't evenstart thepreparation for the dex until the leg is planted. Do you see what I mean?

Take PS whirl for example: this is a "downtime" move usually, but i can hit it uptime, meaning not totally during downtime. I can also do the dex downtime,but with the preparation for the move (hip pivot, plant foot switched, body rotated, arms/legs in position for a jump) completed while the bag is rising. Is this still downtime? To me, if someone argues for the beauty of downtime, performing a ps whirl as I have just described it is not truly downtime. this is what I am trying to get at. What really is downtime?[/b]

[Jeremy]

Don't start the move until your setting leg has planted.

Note: I don't think I've EVER seen vasek use uptime when he doesn't have to, and we can all attest to his control and mastery.

I totally disagree with this. Vasek switches feet and gets into position for moves really quickly. You are right that he doesn't use uptime when he doesn't have to - but the reason he can link out of moves so easily is because he is in postition so quickly.

I say start the move as soon as the footbag leaves your foot. Start the dex whenever you feel you should. Personally I prefer downtime dexes for moves like drifters, torques etc. But I still start the move as soon as possible - I just wait before doing the dexes. Ales' pdx whirl is an awesome example of this. He is in position to do the move almost immediatly - and then waits for what seems like a long time before doing the move - very stylish in my opinion!

[Liam]

Word, Jeremy (O'Wheel). I find that starting the move as soon as it leaves your foot helps with probably every move I can think of, and I think this is a big part of my game. I preach it as being the secret to footbag, heh. Even with downtime moves like torques and drifters you'll always see me getting ready to dex early on (that is, planting nice and early, getting my legs where they need to be, etc), yet the move is never uptime. There seems to be some differance of opinion of what a dex actually is though, which may be causing come confusion. From what I gathered from the chat, Senor Grommet would say that getting your legs ready to dex can be part of the dex, right? Me, I say that the dex occurs when the leg circles the bag.

[Senor Grommet]

Yes Liam,
that is what I think. The prep and the dex itself are intimately tied, as one cannot exist without the other. Thus if the prep is completed during uptime, but the dex, downtime, well, you are a hybrid move! This is, of course, only my opinion, and Im sure that very few shall agree with me.

[Shredster]

Just by a quick skim of things, i have derived that tricks that have nothing to do with a set should be performed completely downtime?

I think it depends on difficulty of the trick. Drifter of course is much easier to perform half uptime/downtime, rather than all downtime. However, some tricks have to be performed half uptime/downtime, regardless if they have a set or not!

Does this mean any part of an uptime trick, regardless if it has a set or not; does performing a trick partially uptime give the trick a set? I don't think so. If you do a drifter half uptime/downtime, are you going to call it a miraging same clipper (miraging being the set)? Or are you going to call it a drifter? I'd call it a drifter, but only if there isn't a plant.

Doesn't make any difference to me. If a trick is clearly defined as having a set, then I will follow that. Otherwise, I feel that any trick that can be performed half uptime/downtime is the way its supposed to be. After thinking about this, the only thing that separates uptime/downtime is a name!

EDIT: I'm probably just talking blah blah...but well, theres my opinion up above. Also, i find moves that are meant to be half uptime/downtime are what they are meant to be. Therefore, i can't say a trick would look better uptime or downtime.

[Liam]

Yes Liam,
that is what I think. The prep and the dex itself are intimately tied, as one cannot exist without the other. Thus if the prep is completed during uptime, but the dex, downtime, well, you are a hybrid move! This is, of course, only my opinion, and Im sure that very few shall agree with me.

Obviously it's true that you can't have one without the other. But by this logic, I can think of so few downtime moves that wouldn't look completely rushed. Pdx mirage comes to mind... most would consider this a downtime move. You would simply have to move your legs into some sort of ready position while the bag is going up.

But I guess it all comes down to your definition of dex.

[james]

Jeremy, I guess I meant don't start the dex until the setting leg is planted, but there really isn't a lot of prep work involved with core moves that CAN use uptime. There are only two types of position that allow for uptime in core moves (core moves being ones that can be done entirely in downtime), and that is opposite clippers and toes (same and op), because you can hop as you set essentially doing a muted set of some sort. Let's look at the whirl for instance. It can be done three ways (from an op clipper):

1) Set the bag, plant the setting leg (without any prep motions) than do the whirl. This would be an original whirl.
2) As you set the bag start bringing your other leg up for the whirl dex. This would be a crispy whirl, or muted stepping op clip.
3) Do a whirling set (blazing?) opposite clipper.

This pattern is the same for any other of the small group of moves where this is possible. Let's try a paradon:
1) Set the bag, plant setting leg, then do the paradon. This is an original paradon.
2) Hop as you set the bag, completing the dexes earlier than usual. This is a crispy paradon
3) Tapdown.

In both examples the first and the third are clearly different moves. The middle one is something of a mix between the move and the muted set with appropriate lesser move (clip in first example, butterfly in second).

And there is only one way to do a PS whirl, so there is no need to try to distinguish minute differences in when you pivot your hip. I guess in this case it would be better to start prepping the move asap, but it serves no appreciable distinction. All paradox moves can only be done one way, whether you say there is prepping in uptime is irrelevant. They are essentially all downtime.
Think about the pixie, as a move. When you want to do a pixie you don't do a pixie SET opposite toe stall, or a muted pixie op toe stall. You set the bag, keep your knee in the air for a second, then do the mirage dex in downtime. That's how the move pixie is done. It is the same for any other core move.
You're cheating if you use uptime. It may be useful to practice the set, or the move at first, but it is not truly the move.

[FlexThis]

[Tsiangkun]

Just MO - I once thought DLO had to be all downtime to be cool. But then I realized that stepping far legover could be just as mean a move if done properly.

blurry legover, now thats a mean trick

[FlexThis]

[Shredster]

I don't remember where i downloaded jeremy's swifters from, but i'll just say it here: Nice swifters! They look sweet! Can i say, symple swifter? Has someone hit a gyro swifter?

[joplick]

i think this subject isnt really that important. the only time a move should be for sure downtime is in ducking moves. everything else is part of each individual players style. in my mind its as simple as that.

i do think that if you can do a move completely downtime you are very talented indeed. a downtime ripstein would be much, much more impressive than a regular one. yet they are both still very impressive.

[FlexThis]