Is it really that unclear?

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 04 Apr 2004 16:57

Jeremy and I are debating the clarity of the name, as well as a number of other things related to it.

Basically what I'm asking here is this: When "ss" is not stated, do you assume opposite? Isn't this idea widespread enough to be considered a "rule"?

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 04 Apr 2004 17:04

you assume opposite for the normally named sets
there are set names that assume ss though, like slapping, tapping, and maybe some other?

but for the basic sets (atomic, pixie, fairy, quantum) it is op side for the next component.

stepping is another story though. if a move CAN be blurry, then saying stepping without the word paradox following it, means it is ss. like stepping mirage, as opposed to blurry mirage.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 04 Apr 2004 17:12

Personally I think Kevin has worded this in a very biased manner.

Just because you assume that it's opposite side, does not mean that it is.

If I said I hit pixie whirl - it could be same side. I would probably say if it was or not because I know lots of people would assume it is op side, but assumptions are just that - assumptions - they aren't fact.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 04 Apr 2004 19:46

i always assume opposite side, unless stated otherwise. so i get really confused when jeremy says he hit vortex > ss whirl. or when someone else said they hit clipper set same side symposium whirl (instead of "symposium whirl") <---another thing i assume is that a move is set from the more common surface unless stated otherwise. ie i always assume whirl is clipper set.

good topic

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 04 Apr 2004 22:38

Ok, firstly - as I see it, there is a difference between the way things should be and the way they are.

What I am saying is that pixie whirl does not neccessarily mean a pixie op whirl. Here is a better example:
Smear>pixie mirage>smear>pixie mirage. I was doing that a bit today. Now the question is - did I just hit four smears? Or did I hit pixie op mirage>pixie same mirage rep. Being as honest as you can be - tell me what you think that combo is. Don't tell me what you think it should be - tell me exactly what you thought I hit - it's fairly obvious in my opinion, but do it anyway!

edit: so if you vote in the poll - don't vote on what you assume. Don't vote on how you think it should be. If you think "Pixie Whirl" can only mean pixie op whirl - and that it is a completely specific name - then vote for it. If you think a "pixie whirl" is just a pixie set and then a whirl - and that it's usually used as a pixie op whirl (and probably should be used only in that manner) but could be used as a pixie ss whirl - then vote the bottom option.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 04 Apr 2004 22:45

chan wrote:ior when someone else said they hit clipper set same side symposium whirl (instead of "symposium whirl")

You mean clipper set same side symposium whirling same clipper stall?

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 05 Apr 2004 06:43

Jeremy, I don't like this. It seems like you're grabbing at unlikely examples.

Smear > Pixie Mirage just forces confusion. Why would someone write Pixie Mirage if they already know that a Pixie Mirage is a Smear? This is an unclear example, yes, but it's lack of clarity is due to its incorrect use of a mainstream convention.

If I said, "Atom Smasher > Atomic Mirage", what would you think? They are the exact same thing. Writing it like that is redundant.

ANYONE will tell you that Smear = Pixie Mirage. You say that there's room for error because it's only assumed. Well, it's assumed widely enough that few people will tell you otherwise. For the few who are unsure, they might say, "Opp or Same Mirage"?

The solution: Educate them on the current conventions. Everything will be clear.

Note: Don't ever get drunk over a time change. I still feel out of it, and that was Saturday night.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 05 Apr 2004 10:49

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 05 Apr 2004 12:12

To me, anything is op side unless stated. Thats why ss sets confuse me. IMO, sets should be named for the motion, then if it's op side, leave it alone. If it's ss, put a ss in there after the set. (pixie butterfly, pixie ss butterfly)

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Apr 2004 15:29

Repeating - This is not about what you assume. I don't care what assumptions you make. Perhaps many of you do not understand what the word "Assume" means - get a dictionary and look it up.

What the question is is - does "pixie whirl" always mean pixie op whirl? - i guess we're asking if it has intrinsic meaning or not.

So if someone calls pixie ss whirl - pixie whirl - they are just as wrong as if they called ripwalk "eggbeater" ?

If one more person posts here saying - I always assume blah blah blah they will be in trouble!!

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » 05 Apr 2004 15:43

Sure Pixie Whirl could mean either Pixie Op Whirl, or Pixie Same Whirl, I see your point there Jeremy. Because a Pixie Same Whirl contains both a Pixie set and a whirl, so why not. But...

When I see Pixie Whirl written I ASSUME (trouble

) that it is intended to mean Pixie Op Whirl. And it IS safe to assume in this situation, just because of how widely accepted this 'rule' is.

Why make things more confusing than they need to be. For simplicitys sake, after a set is completed just assume that the next component will be on the opposite side (unless otherwise stated using 'ss' or side-sensitive-sets like tapping/atomic and slapping/quantum).

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Apr 2004 16:00

Horray - Finally someone sees what I'm talking about!!

I agree that it makes sense to assume op sideness - I do it as well. However that wasn't really the issue being discussed (in my arguement with Kevin) - I was saying that pixie whirl could be a pixie ss whirl - which finally someone else agrees with - thank you Johnny!!

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 05 Apr 2004 17:05

It could, but only if you are unaware of the golden "rule" to which Johnny has referred. And since you ARE aware of this rule, why even bring up this conversation? Pixie whirl doesn't mean pixie ss whirl to you, does it . . .? To whom does it mean ss?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Apr 2004 17:20

argh. Is this so hard to understand?

I don't care if everybody in the world calls pixie whirl a fucking gumboot! That's not what this is about.

all I'm saying is that you could say pixie whirl when talking about pixie ss whirl.

Yes it would be confusing and yes most, maybe all, people don't do it - but it wouldn't be incorrect.

Please note the emphasis on could in this post. You don't have to - theoritically you could...

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 05 Apr 2004 17:23

But Jeremy,
that would be like calling an atom smasher a tapping op. mirage. why call it one thing when you know it is unclear? It makes no sense.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Apr 2004 17:31

This isn't a question of clearness - it's a question of if you can do it or not. I don't know why you would do it. I don't care. I can't even remember what Kevin and I were debating or how it is relevant to this discussion.

I completely agree that it's confusing to call pixie ss whirl "pixie whirl"

That has nothing to do with the question.

The question is "If you wanted to - could you call pixie ss whirl 'pixie whirl'?"

The question is not "Why would you want to" or "Should you" or "what would you call pixie ss whirl"

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 05 Apr 2004 17:51

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 05 Apr 2004 17:51

If you wanted to, you could call pixie ss whirl "buck futter." The answer to your question is yes.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 05 Apr 2004 18:29

If someone says that hit pixie whirl, I know what they hit.

whirl is a set>op in-out [dex] >op clipper [xdb][del]
'Something Almost Different' is set>same in-out [dex]>op clip [xdb][del]

--Tsiangkun

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 05 Apr 2004 18:54

Jeremy O, it is a question of clearness.

We were debating whether we need set names like Dixe and Dairy and Puppy. You suggested that "Dixie Whirl" is clearer than "Pixie Whirl", because it automatically means ss, and the latter could mean either op or ss.

Well yeah, your "Pixie ss = Dixie"-style Dixie Whirl WOULD be clearer than someone relating Pixie Whirl to the trick they actually hit, "Pixie ss Whirl". That's because they are not cognizant of current conventions. It's not because they were looking to create a confusing situation.

I mentioned in the chat with J.O., that I think it's about finding a balance of name length. Jobs Notation is the extreme for length. "Common" names represent the other end of the spectrum. Like Grommetastic said, we could just call it "Buck Futter", and then there would be no potential for argument at all, but I think that a name for the up, and a name for the down is where the balance lies. SS should be included in that balance.

Argh, I wish I could say what I want to say more minimalistically.

modified

Is it really that unclear?

Pixie Whirl:

Is it really that unclear?