Dropping the Add System

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 03 May 2004 12:17

At the New Paltz Jam someone was talking with Sunil (can't remember who) and they were trying to suggest changes to the add system. Sunil suggested not changing the system, rather to drop the system altogether and start with a whole different system that wasn't component based.

So... I have not really come up with a new system, however I am suggesting that we do away with adds altogether.
If you look at other event that incorporate tricks such as skateboarding, rollerblading, figure skating, surfing, wake boarding etc... those sports don't have tricks with specific point values. They are judged on execution and overall performance.

Let's face it, any pro level player in this sport knows what's hard and what isn't... we don't need points to tell us. When it comes to hitting the harder tricks I think it's safe to say we all know what is hard and what is not. I think that judges can be subjective and fair without needing to rely on an outdated point system.

It's not enough to say "adds schmads" anymore. When someone asks how many adds a trick is worth we should be saying "ZERO".

Posi-Cole · Post by **Posi-Cole** » 03 May 2004 12:23

Definitely no in my opinion, unless a better alternative could be created.

Footbag needs more structure, not less..... A completely subjective way to judge things would not work well in my opinion.

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 03 May 2004 12:29

going guiltless wouldn't have meaning anymore. New people who come to the game wouldn't know what tricks are considered a bail and which others aren't. It would be completely memorization without the system. Although later on u do learn it, but in the earlier stages of playing, it would be hell to memorizing everything like that.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 03 May 2004 12:31

I think the point he's trying to make is that it works fine in other trick-based sports.... but by that logic, I'd have to agree. I mean you can still have the components of a move but why give them a point value, i agree that it should be up to the judges discretion to give a complete run a critique instead of counting up points.

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 03 May 2004 12:35

For me yes!!

2 problems arise, however

1 how to expain the sport to newbies
2 how to judge shred thirty.

You said it yourself, we know whats hard and what isn't. don't throw out a sytem because a few moves don't get the adds they deserve.

krawallier · Post by **krawallier** » 03 May 2004 12:59

besides shred30 adds are irrelevant anyways... so if we are talking adds we are talking how to judge shred30. for everything else adds don't matter anyways, that should be obvious... but judging shred30 only subjectively? that's a toughie...

and the term guiltless is not going to disappear in any case, simply cause so many people know it, and newbies will be told about it...

david · Post by **david** » 03 May 2004 13:13

i think comparing footbag to skateboarding isnt a good comparison. in skateboarding you probably have say, 100 commonly used tricks right? in footbag you have 500+ (according to the moves list). in skatebaording comps they dont need to have like points and stuff becuase tricks easily make sence whats harder then the other. 720 is harder then 360 etc. plus, its not non stop tricks. its skate.... tricks.... skate... tricks. not rapid shuffle. i think with a sport as complex as footbag you cant have some broad generalization score, it needs to be pretty detailed.

furthermore, what are the huge flaws with the add system? why does it need changing? i havent been playing long, but is there really a huge imbalance? furthermore, if adds dont mean difficulty, who cares, its just a loose system of ranking tricks.

just some thoughts.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 03 May 2004 13:55

To answer how newbies would learn we could simply separate moves lists into:
beginner/intermediate/pro/elite

As for how to judge shred 30 you simply look at an overall run and you just say "this person had 1 elite move, 20 pro moves, 8 intermediates, and 1 drop" then incorporate uniques and number of contacts into an overall score based on the 1-10 or 1-100 including decimals.
Or something like that. Somehow you just look at the overall run.

People need to stop getting hung up on adds. Adds don't properly determine difficulty so they should not be used as a basis for difficulty when scoring a contest or how much better a person is getting.

How many people think Atomsmasher and Ripwalk are truly of equal difficulty? It took X-dex (which isn't even 100% accepted) to give them an equal add score. How about Vortex and Torque and Blender?
How about Paradox Whirl Vs. Barfly? Whirling moves have become the tripless bail! Everyone (don't get stupid it's obviously not "everyone") hit's PS Whirl out of Pdx Torque! Why not hit Superfly??? Could it be that IT'S HARDER??? What about Ducking Pdx Whirl Vs. Ducking Barfly?

I mean really, there is another way to judge besides using adds. The first step is just to decide that adds really do suck and that we are going to ditch them.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 03 May 2004 14:03

Yes, the adds system has it's flaws, but things like x-dex and x-spin are helping even those flaws out. I know x-dex isn't widely excepted by everyone, but it is catching on. We need more concepts like x-dex to help imporve the add system, not to scrap the whole idea.

I think the beginner/intermediate/pro/elite scoring system would also suffer from the players who hit moves that no one else does/can, and are therefore ranked high, and people suffer. Then, when those certain moves are ranked lower, those players who hit them suffer.

A perfect system cannot be created, because there will always be the outlier who screws up the system, I believe.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 03 May 2004 14:29

xdex and x-spin are not fixes, they are the equivalent of duck tape and saran wrap.

Adds were components of tricks, not something that required analysing multiple components within tricks.

Get rid of the dirty hacks and kludges and develope a real scoring system.

carl winslow · Post by **carl winslow** » 03 May 2004 14:37

i dont compete so i dont care. but i always thought adds were pointless and confusing, why do you need them if they dont reflect difficulty anyway? frigid osis is way harder than 1 add! but i dont care cause i dont compete.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 03 May 2004 15:32

This thread has got me thinking, so I'll post after I've thought a bit more than my last post. Also, my opinions have changed.

Adds do not judge difficulty, because certain components are harder than others (legover and illusion, drifter and butterfly).

A new system needs to be created, not to replace the add system, but to improve on its flaws. (this could mean a whole different system, but it might not either)

Harder components should be graded/scored higher, but a players ability to hit a move has to come into play also (players with strengths, signature moves etc.)

Basically, I think adds need a fix, however that may be. But, we need a system that gets rid of the adds system's flaws, but doesn't create new flaws of it's own.

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » 03 May 2004 15:34

Exactly. Adds are too vague. They don't really convey how hard a trick really is. And footbag already has structure up the ass, I think it could use less. owever, i don't really compare because I don't compete either. In a structured competition (like if footbag ever made it to the olympics) the triks should be based on the difficulty of each component of the trick, with different comonents being different levels of difficulty. I think that for starters, a dexterity is harder than a delay. But also certain moves require more attention to timing, more flexibility, balance, ect. All of those factors should be taken into account, and each trick meted out the exact ammount of points it deserves, so that all of you footbag orismologist nerds will be satisfied. I think the add system should be changed, but that point values should be computed out to the fifth or sixth decimal place, for exact exactitude. Yes, then it would be such a beautiful science I mean sport.

(http://www.kokogiak.com/logolepsy/ow_o.html#orismology)[/url]

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 03 May 2004 15:51

if someone can come up with a better system, then i say go for it. But i don't think it's in any of our places to change this whole sport. I think this should be left to the older players.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 03 May 2004 15:57

first thing I would do is get rid of the delay add.

99% of the tricks used in competition start and end on delays. It's like giving skateboarders points for dropping in at the start of a vert competition. It might be a trick, but every single person in the event is going to perform this trick.

I would also consider a context based system where the value of a component is determined by it's poisition withing the trick, and the components preceeding and following it.

--Tsiangkun

pips · Post by **pips** » 03 May 2004 16:38

I'm not into the game enough yet to say much, but I think if you are gonna change it at all, you should just take the point part away and leave the level of difficulty concept of it. It is kind of like pages in a book or something to mark your place in the game. And technically, the adds don't matter, but the higher the adds, the better you probably are and recieve more respect.

Shredster · Post by **Shredster** » 03 May 2004 21:29

Not everything is wrong with the add system. A poll that said "revise the add system" would be more accurate.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 03 May 2004 22:43

Posi-Cole wrote:Definitely no in my opinion, unless a better alternative could be created.

Footbag needs more structure, not less..... A completely subjective way to judge things would not work well in my opinion.

wow. this was so brilliant!

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 May 2004 01:40

Horray!! The forum is back

I've developed two "point systems" - one is very complicated - quite accurate in my opinion - I can' go into details be basically moves can get up to around 20 points! - this makes this system hard to use for some things.

The other system - which is much better! is based on my experience going for long runs, and is aimed at strong players

1 point is awarded to moves of this kind of diffilculty: mirage, atw, illusion, butterfly, ducking clip, spinning clip, symp mirage. - easy moves

2 points: smear, atomsmasher, ripwalk, barfly, pdx whirl, torque, pdx torque, dlo, pdx dlo etc. - medium moves

3 points: blurry whirl, mobius, superfly, whirlygig, mullet, flurry, ripstien. -hard moves

4 points: nemesis, superduperfly, gangsta party, - bad ass moves!

sampotter · Post by **sampotter** » 05 May 2004 21:35

Go into details -- you never know, maybe people will like the idea.

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Dropping the Add System

Dump the add system?

Dropping the Add System