Dropping the Add System

sen · Post by **sen** » 05 May 2004 21:58

I'd like to point out that comparing Footbag to Figure Skating (first post of this thread) is a bad idea. If this sport was judged like figure skating is we would have so much more contravosy. For some reason I've seen alot of figure skating, and the judging is not fair. Judges often give higher points to someone because they are their friends, not because they can skate better. The last Olymics was a good example. . .

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 05 May 2004 22:24

how bout we get rid of all tricks and go back to how long we can keep it in the air? Bonus five points for every 10 minutes its in the air.

WaldenPond · Post by **WaldenPond** » 05 May 2004 23:00

We have to keep footbag fresh and unique. My vote is to stay away from the mainstream grading and judging process (skating, etc). The system is slowly changing as we have seen with the new concept of x-dex. So, the evolution will continue, but unhurried.
I think it would be interesting to add to the judging factor. I say there aught to be an element where the competitors themselves vote- making it on the honors system, kind of.
Whatever- killer discussion though!

MegaFighter_X · Post by **MegaFighter_X** » 05 May 2004 23:02

I'm intrested in the system. Drop it on us Jeremy!

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 06 May 2004 01:53

Ok - this is the complicated system! Let me add that Corona is the best and I may make mistakes

Firstly you get a point evertime the footbag passes behind or infront of a leg. For example clip set op butterfly scores two "dex" points - one for passing infront of the support leg and one for passing behind the "dexing" leg.

argh - it's complicated! Split your body into four parts - x body, toe, other toe, other x body. You score a bonus point for each of these levels that the footbag passes against a dex. For example - matador scores 4 "dex" points - infront of support, behind dex, infront of dex, behind support. It also gets 3 bonus points - after first add system dex - it comes back the other way - passing over both toes to the x body system.

Each time the bag passes behind a leg in one time slot (up time or down time) a bonus point will be awarded - this only applies after one dex - example ripwalk scores no bonus points. Blurriest scores 2 bonus points.

Um - I've forgotten what the full story with spins, ducks and symps were. I never dealt with unusuals and there is no pdx or x dex. I've got it written down somewhere and will check. The dex thing was the main focus - and I'm not sure if ripwalk got bonus points or not. As I recall there was one major problem - that is also a problem in the add system and I couldn't figure it out.

Posi-Cole · Post by **Posi-Cole** » 06 May 2004 03:50

Maybe it's because I haven't delved too much into the 5+ add moves as of yet, but I think it's silly when people say adds don't reflect difficulty. Sure there are situations where they don't and there will always be exceptions, but as a general rule (at least from my experiences) it seems that in general 1 adds ARE easier than 2 adds, which are easier than 3 adds, which are easier than 4 adds, etc. Now like I said, there are obviously exceptions, like dimwalk, ripwalk, sidewalk, and those types of moves being easier than some 3's, but in general, doesn't adds do at least an okay job at reflecting difficulty?

joplick · Post by **joplick** » 06 May 2004 08:18

i have had a few ideas on simplifying the add system, i cant come up with a lot of examples cause i dont know enough tricks to rate difficulty but here it is. because you guys are open for ideas, right?

1. all delays get one point (add)

2. different sets get different points (haven't decided which one is better)

ex: pixie/fairy/ducking/spinning =1 pt.
atomic/nuclear/stepping =2 pt.
spin duck/flailing/barraging =3 pt.
warp/etc. =4 pt.

or maybe 1 component (dex, bod) = 1 point
2 component (dex+symp, spin+duck, 2dex)= 2 point
3 component (symp+2dex) = 3 point

3. what followes the set gets certain points (the + is the amount of points the dex get following the set (set points are explained above)

ex: dex following ----> toe or clipper
= +1 no paradox
dex following ----> single s.s dex (pixie, stepping, etc.)
= +1
dex following ----> single op. side dex (atomic, nuclear, etc.)
= +1 if followed by a s.s. component or op out component OR = +2 if followed by an op in component (paradox)
dex following ----> double ss dex(smiling, barraging, etc.)
= +1
= +2 if followed by and op in component
any other sets (bod, uns) get +1 point unless followed by paradox.
any set followed by a duck or a spin can get a paradox add

4. downtime points (applies to intermediates, beginners)

all downtime components have normal points EXCEPT
same/op out > op toe (illusion, eggbeater)
same/op out > same clip (royale, reverse drifter)

here is some adds(points) of moves with this system:
(all using set system 2)

toe = 1, clipper = 1, illusion = 2, clip same mirage (formerly paradox mirage) = 2, atom smasher = 4, clip same symp whirl (formerly ps whirl) = 3, whirl = 2 add, nemesis = 5.

this system is just a bunch of mixed up thoughts in my head (its very rough), but if it were to be implemented it would be for really advanced players. it would make adds of moves a lot more compact and simple.)

end. tell me what you guys think. edit: p.s. i dont think the add system needs to be changed. we all have common sense and know which moves are harder.

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 06 May 2004 08:25

I think that this is nothing new. It is versy similar to curent. I think that current system is better than this what you have wrote.

But... That was wrot Jeremy make sense!!! Some fixes, addings and it will be greate! Jeremy's system see the difrent beetween full - half dexes, far - near...
I think that this is good concept to develope.

Spadrick · Post by **Spadrick** » 06 May 2004 14:31

I personally dont see anything wrong with the add system, but then again, I have yet to compete in any sanctioned tournament.

I think that 'House Rules' will always be available, but the add system wont change until the IFPA or other sanctioning groups are bombarded with complaints about the current system.

' If it isnt broken, why fix it? '

~ Dex

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » 06 May 2004 16:38

i still don't think any of these are complicated enough. Seriously, you guys could do a lot better job. The current add system is mindnumbingly simple. There are so many different types of tricks and sets and different permutations, configurations of movements that make up tricks that the current add system cannot accurately judge the difficulty of them all. I say it's time for change. Let's see some decimals.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 06 May 2004 21:31

Spadrick wrote:I personally dont see anything wrong with the add system, but then again, I have yet to compete in any sanctioned tournament.

The add system is only used for shred 30 these days. Imagine you are going a 30 second shred - would you put flurry or ripstien or whirr in your shred 30? Probably not! Why try to hit a hard move when you can hit an easy move for the same or more adds. Recently Max from France hit reverse swirling toe stall. This is a very hard move - yet if he did it in a shred 30 it could actually force a reduction in his score (since it's only a 2 add and not considered unique).

The add system doesn't work at all in my opinion and the scoring for shred 30 should be changed or the system should be changed.

Oh - and the problem with my system that made me give up was because I couldn't figure out why clipper set drifter was harder than infinity. I needed a rule that would only work in one direction.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 06 May 2004 22:05

Jeremy wrote: I couldn't figure out why clipper set drifter was harder than infinity. I needed a rule that would only work in one direction.

I'm not sure either. It might be that the average person has less dex preparation time on drifter than infinity.

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 06 May 2004 22:11

when the same leg that does the dex stalls the bag the trick becomes more difficuly:
barfly vs motion
osis vs far osis
etc.

Shredster · Post by **Shredster** » 06 May 2004 23:36

Blender is a very hard trick that ends with a delay with the same leg as you dexed with...i tried many times today to get that move and i still haven't footed it

I don't entirely agree with you jeremy on this:

when the same leg that does the dex stalls the bag the trick becomes more difficuly:

Depends on the trick. Double legover isn't that hard and the dex leg is the same delay leg. I really agree if it ends in clipper though

max · Post by **max** » 07 May 2004 01:21

when the same leg that does the dex stalls the bag the trick becomes more difficuly:
barfly vs motion
osis vs far osis

doesn't really apply to toe delays

double switch over vs delusion
eggbeater vs omelette

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 07 May 2004 06:48

So far I think the suggestions made for a different system are too complicated. If there is a system that is going to measure difficulty it needs to be quick and easily executable.

That's why a subjective system works best. Freestylers are judging eachother based on their experiences in the game. You usually have at least 3 judges who are all different styles of players so you have a good mix of people to check and balance eachother.

I'm breaking up this post in an attempt to not bore everyone.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 07 May 2004 06:48

First I have to apologize for misquoting or rather underquoting Sunil in my initial post. I apologize.
I'm going to try and not do it again with this next part.

Sunil opened my eyes to seeing the add system as a component only scoring system. It doesn't really do anything for difficulty because difficulty is too subjective. For instance Pinkus can probably hit a Pixie Eggbeater a hell of a lot easier than he can hit a Paradox Torque where as I can hit Paradox Torque a hell of a lot easier than Pixie Eggbeater.

Another example would be toe delays and clipper stalls. Most pepole learn toe stalls and gradually move on to clippers. In most cases the clipper is much harder than the toe and it takes a longer time to learn it. However, once it's learned clipper set and catch moves become almost as easy if not easier than toe moves.

So if you throw out any belief that the add system judges difficulty and just focus on it's ability to count moves components then you have a pretty decent system for judging components. However, it still has flaws. Where I once thought the flaws weren't easily fixable because I kept thinking of the difficulty factor, I now believe they are fixable.

next post.....

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 07 May 2004 07:27

One fix I would suggest (and I've suggested this before) is to remove the Unusual Surface category and replace it with a category simply called "Unusual".

The big changes of this new category would be that Unusual Sets would be included as scorable components of a move.

For instance catching frigid osis would get 2 add components instead of the measely 1 it gets now... unusual > delay.
Setting from a frigid osis would also enable a paradox the same way a x-body set would. So frigid set > op in > op clip would be a 4 add Paradox Whirl.
Likewise a sole stall would do the same. It would be a 2 add move like always unusual > delay and it would enable paradox.

Dragon Delays would get an Unusual add as well So Flipwalk would be 5 adds because it incorporates that extra component.

Thoughts?

sniikeri · Post by **sniikeri** » 07 May 2004 08:57

I read only the first post of this thread before I started to write this.

Dumping the Add-system? No. It's useful and it helps sourcing the tricks. People should just pay more attention for the style, being both sided and skooling the tricks properly before taking the next step to bigger moves.

wicked · Post by **wicked** » 07 May 2004 10:33

In my opinion, the add elements as a point system SUCKS for determining trick difficulty, however, I think the 5 ELEMENTS (Body, Dexterity, Cross Body, Unusual Surface, Delay) are perfect as is.. These elements are the basic components of the game that can't be ignored.

In skateboarding there ARE fundamental elements like footbag... Kickflip for instance has an ollie, and a flip (and a landing). Double kickflip has an ollie, two flips, and a landing.. They dont call it a 2 or a 3 but they do incorporate components that make each trick unique. To further my example, if you do a 180 while doing a kickflip there are more element names that notate what you did, i.E. frontside 180 flip, backside 180 flip, etc... If you add a nose slide on top of that they say, fronside-flip-noseslide. If you hellflip out, its fronside-flip-noseslide-heelflip-out.. This wouldn't be called "skull crusher" either.. In skateboarding ALOT of moves are component based, and left simple.

The add elements in footbag, while being shady as a point score, are footbag's component base.. Not something you can just scrap. A Dexterity is universal for describing whats going on when your footbag goes around the bag. If you get rid of the add system what will we call dexes then, Circles, aroundies, orbits??? Just like kickflip has an Ollie and a flip, around the world has a dexterity and a delay, and that is solid... Likewise, just as there is frontside-flip-noslide-heelflip out, we have gyro-miraging-reverse-legover, Should they be called a 3 or a 4? Who cares.. just go shred.

I do know the add system has played a big part in footbags growth.. Guiltless was a milestone in footbag in my opinion (no 2 adds in your game).. The entire goal of many pro footbaggers has been influenced by the add system to some degree..
While it does have crazy loopholes, (quadruple around the world kick a 4 vs. ripwalk a 4) it does deserve some respect.

Just my two hundred and eighty nine cents

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Dropping the Add System

Dump the add system?