I'm suprised nobody has brought this up already.
I just saw a short story on a current events program in Australia that was suggesting a fair bit about how high up the orders came from. I feel sick every time I see those pictures on tv - but I was hardly suprised.
I have a question for those that support the war - the people I call "hardcore nationalists" ie. Matt, Carl Winslow, Highdemonslayer, Senor Grommet and Wicked (maybe Flex - I'm not entirely sure on his postition) - Does seeing this make you at all question your belief that your nation has the right to control the world as it sees fit? Does it make you think that this isn't a battle of "Good and Evil" as only Americans would call a conflict in reality - and that war really does bring at the worst in people and should not be a resort at all - not even a last resort?
Iraq - Torture
The media here is starting to spin this into another american patriotic BS thingy.
Something like.
[BigBro]
We told you not to show pictures, and now there is a headless american. If you were patriotic you wouldn't have shown these pictures, and wouldn't discuss the torture, and certainly wouldn't suggest that orders were given. This is just an isolated incident.
[/BigBro]
I don't want to go to cuba, so I wont disagree with the arguement that it is an isolated event.
I'm sure there are many isolated events that have thousands of photographs taken, along with video. This would appear to be a systematic excercise of torture, complete with video and photo documentation, but to say that would be against the contract I had to sign at work. Troops acting as lone wolf renegades wouldn't keep this type of documentation, orders were given and they documented the execution of those orders. As for how far up they go, I believe the reports saying they came from the oval office.
When Bush gave his full support for the job Rummy has done, that was[my opinion] because the orders came that high up. Bush can't let Rummy go, because Rummy has made it clear that he will sing like a bird if Bush hangs him out to dry. So Bush is forced to back Rummy, or have all his secrets come into the public domain. The people are being forced to back bush, because if you don't then you put our troops lives in danger.
--Tsiangkun for President 2016
As long as there is a lower class, I am in it.
As long as there is a criminal element, I’m of it.
As long as there is a soul in prison, I am not free. --EV Debs
Something like.
[BigBro]
We told you not to show pictures, and now there is a headless american. If you were patriotic you wouldn't have shown these pictures, and wouldn't discuss the torture, and certainly wouldn't suggest that orders were given. This is just an isolated incident.
[/BigBro]
I don't want to go to cuba, so I wont disagree with the arguement that it is an isolated event.
I'm sure there are many isolated events that have thousands of photographs taken, along with video. This would appear to be a systematic excercise of torture, complete with video and photo documentation, but to say that would be against the contract I had to sign at work. Troops acting as lone wolf renegades wouldn't keep this type of documentation, orders were given and they documented the execution of those orders. As for how far up they go, I believe the reports saying they came from the oval office.
When Bush gave his full support for the job Rummy has done, that was[my opinion] because the orders came that high up. Bush can't let Rummy go, because Rummy has made it clear that he will sing like a bird if Bush hangs him out to dry. So Bush is forced to back Rummy, or have all his secrets come into the public domain. The people are being forced to back bush, because if you don't then you put our troops lives in danger.
--Tsiangkun for President 2016
As long as there is a lower class, I am in it.
As long as there is a criminal element, I’m of it.
As long as there is a soul in prison, I am not free. --EV Debs
First let me say this... I hate this war, President Bush is incompetent, Rumsfeld is dictatorial, VP Cheney has too much going on under the radar, and Colon Powell (who I used to like) has gotten himself into some serious shit by following the wrong guy.
This war is worse than Vietnam because the Vietnamese were happy enough to get us out of their country and be left alone. The Middle Eastern Terrorist organizations will continue blowing up every living thing after we leave because they behave like children who don't get what they want and they have the brainwashing techniques of 1500 years worth of religious doctrine to guide them.
Now...Jeremy... you have the benefit of looking at this whole thing from an outside point of view. I can't say as I know a whole hell of a lot about Australia except that you don't drink Fosters, Sydney has a giant opera house, and INXS is an australian band. I also know this, Australia doesn't have any or many enemies because they don't have anything anyone else wants. It's not one of the wealthiest countries, it doesn't allow citizenship to ousiders very easily, it's cut off from the rest of the world (except New Zealand)(by the way, where's Old Zealand?), and it doesn't really have much developable space because so much of it is bushland.
So as I said, you have the ease and grace of being able to criticize what the US is involved in because your country is almost always at peace unless they follow someone else into war. Though if you look back into your own countries history you'll find the aboriginal tribes were treated even worse than the humiliated prisoners in Iraq (a dispicable, expectable, and never before televised event in any war).
Quite frankly Osama Bin Ladin opened up Pandora's Box when he ordered the destruction of the World Trade Center. There were no reasonable demands made, and there was no way the American Way Of Life (Capitalism and streets paved with gold and all that crap) was going to change for us to say "Oh gee we're sorry that we have and you don't. Thank goodness you murdered 2,500 innocent people and showed us the error of our ways". Had we done nothing in response they would have taken it as a sign of weakness and we would have been an open target to any and all terrorist organizations who had a beef with us.
So simply put Jeremy, I don't think you have the right to criticize the US as idealisticly as you do. I appreciate that you are aware of the need for peace, but I don't think you can appreciate what we've been through until the world come's along and spends a hundred years poking Australia in the nutsack and then gives you one big kick in the balls.
I do believe there was a better way to handle it than going to war in Iraq which is a country we had left in a "3rd World" state after the Gulf War, but be that as it may, it's too fuckin' late now and we just have to work with what we've got.
With any luck we'll be able to vote Bush right the fuck out of the White House and all his stupid fuckin right wing cronies along with him.
Sorry about the tones involved, but I'm heated. I like you Jeremy, I just think you're a little to far out on the left wing and not enough in the center.
This war is worse than Vietnam because the Vietnamese were happy enough to get us out of their country and be left alone. The Middle Eastern Terrorist organizations will continue blowing up every living thing after we leave because they behave like children who don't get what they want and they have the brainwashing techniques of 1500 years worth of religious doctrine to guide them.
Now...Jeremy... you have the benefit of looking at this whole thing from an outside point of view. I can't say as I know a whole hell of a lot about Australia except that you don't drink Fosters, Sydney has a giant opera house, and INXS is an australian band. I also know this, Australia doesn't have any or many enemies because they don't have anything anyone else wants. It's not one of the wealthiest countries, it doesn't allow citizenship to ousiders very easily, it's cut off from the rest of the world (except New Zealand)(by the way, where's Old Zealand?), and it doesn't really have much developable space because so much of it is bushland.
So as I said, you have the ease and grace of being able to criticize what the US is involved in because your country is almost always at peace unless they follow someone else into war. Though if you look back into your own countries history you'll find the aboriginal tribes were treated even worse than the humiliated prisoners in Iraq (a dispicable, expectable, and never before televised event in any war).
Quite frankly Osama Bin Ladin opened up Pandora's Box when he ordered the destruction of the World Trade Center. There were no reasonable demands made, and there was no way the American Way Of Life (Capitalism and streets paved with gold and all that crap) was going to change for us to say "Oh gee we're sorry that we have and you don't. Thank goodness you murdered 2,500 innocent people and showed us the error of our ways". Had we done nothing in response they would have taken it as a sign of weakness and we would have been an open target to any and all terrorist organizations who had a beef with us.
So simply put Jeremy, I don't think you have the right to criticize the US as idealisticly as you do. I appreciate that you are aware of the need for peace, but I don't think you can appreciate what we've been through until the world come's along and spends a hundred years poking Australia in the nutsack and then gives you one big kick in the balls.
I do believe there was a better way to handle it than going to war in Iraq which is a country we had left in a "3rd World" state after the Gulf War, but be that as it may, it's too fuckin' late now and we just have to work with what we've got.
With any luck we'll be able to vote Bush right the fuck out of the White House and all his stupid fuckin right wing cronies along with him.
Sorry about the tones involved, but I'm heated. I like you Jeremy, I just think you're a little to far out on the left wing and not enough in the center.
Old Skool
Bushes actions don't make him a strong leader, or the country a strong nation.Splint wrote:Had we done nothing in response they would have taken it as a sign of weakness and we would have been an open target to any and all terrorist organizations who had a beef with us.
1) Having a president that prides himself as being anti-intellectual is a sign of weakness.
2) Having a president that doesn't read [even his own PDBriefings] is a sign of weakness.
3) I saw the tapes of the beheaded american soldier. I was reminded of when Bush started this campaign and promised shock and awe. Now that we have seen the shock and stand in awe, the interest in this violent, unjust war is even stronger among the hawks. To back off now would be to admit to being wrong. Bush couldn't even think of any errors he made in his presidency at the last SOTU address, this is a sign of a weak leader. He has given no thought to the destruction he has caused, it never occurs to him that he could be making grave errors in judgement.
I read you post, and know your against the war, but for the benefit of those still thinking the Iraq war has anything to do with fighting 'terror' :
Iraq was never linked to Al-Quida funding.
Iraq didn't have the chemical weapons.
Iraq didn't have the biological weapons
Iraq didn't purchase yellowcake
Iraq didn't have a nuclear weapons program
Sadaam wasn't a threat to the US.
There is no 9-11 link with Iraq.
None of the attacking terrorist were Iraqie.
Osama bin laden is still at large.
Afganistan is worse off now than they were under the taliban.
--Tsiangkun
Hmmm....
This is where I defend Bush right?
First of all I agree with Brad about not showing weakness. I also agree with Cameron that this country relies heavily on secrecy to stay ahead of everyone. Capitalism in this country is put first, it's citizens second, and the world dead last.
Here is why:
When we defeated the British we were granted an opportunity to change history and create a New land in a time when technology was beginning to grow. We had no reservations about charting our own course. We have no American history to follow, so we made our own.
This country is still very young and with no tradition to fall back on, we must rely on the present and future hopes to get us through from day to day. Things are still evolving, governments can change, laws can change, and noone is forced to pray 5 times a day. You can basically do what you want with the except of crime.
Since the inception of the constitiution our government has worked hard to ensure the economy of this country grows. We haven't done the best job of that, but we are trying. Unfortunately, there is coruption running ramped in the gov., but when has there been a gov. where that wasn't the case?
So we defend our actions to preserve the Dollar, and keep America strong. We keep quiet because we don't want the competition. Russia would have been a bitch to defeat had we went to war. They had more soldiers, more weapons, and IMO a better training ground than the US. Good thing we solved that crisis at least for now.
I disagree about htis war being worse than Vietnam. That is a little bit dramatic to even compare the 2. Vietnam was about communism and human rights. This country was still young technology wise and was fighting the war the wrong way. You cannot expect to beat an enemy that is under ground, while your troops are marching through their target zone. This is why so many died.
The Iraqi war is different. We have superior firepower, more intelligent troops, better survilance equipment, and well trained men in the air and on the ground. The insurgents (Al Queda, Iraqis, Saddam Loyalists) are using there own people as bombs, as shields, and pointing to religion as their guide. This is not a fair way to proceed, but this is all they have left.
It's funny to me that other countries are calling this an illegal war, yet if anyone were to behead someone, their ass would be fried, you know what I'm saying?
The American torture of Iraqi prisoners is to be expected. When a country grants a ton of freedom on its people, those people generate thoughts and act out on their own. In Vietnam, women were raped, children beaten and tortured, ears cut off and used as tropheys, etc... Some fucked up shit was going on, by our own American people. Their lives were fucked because they were in a hopeless situation where their lives were constantly threatened, so they went insane.
In Iraq the soldiers lives are not as in danger, IMO. They are simply letting off steam. Noone was beheaded, toe nails ripped out, dicks chopped off or urethras opened wide with shards of glass. Nothing like this has happened. But it damn sure happened in Vietnam.
I guess I'm trying to say that war is hell, but neccessary to ensure the safety and security of America. We do not and cannot waver on this, otherwise, what other Nation would be capable of keeping guys like Bin Laden from attacking other countries, building armies, developing nuclear weapons and eventually destroying the earth? none.
I wish we were all of the same mindset or at least education to know the difference between right and wrong, but even in America, we cannot tell, otherwise hate groups like the Klan would not exist.
Sorry I'm so all over the map. A lot was said. Sorry Jeremy I must defend the war.
Oh yeah, Rumsfeld fucked up, and Brad is right about everything regarding the others. I see no conspiracies however, other than the blood for oil thing, which is becomming more and more apparent as we continue to fight in Iraq. If Saddam was the only bad guy, we would have left a long time ago, but he is not.
An one more thing - we went to war in Iraq not to free people, that was an excuse to get money from congress to save the airline industry after 911. Who you think makes all those planes over there? Boewing.
This is where I defend Bush right?
First of all I agree with Brad about not showing weakness. I also agree with Cameron that this country relies heavily on secrecy to stay ahead of everyone. Capitalism in this country is put first, it's citizens second, and the world dead last.
Here is why:
When we defeated the British we were granted an opportunity to change history and create a New land in a time when technology was beginning to grow. We had no reservations about charting our own course. We have no American history to follow, so we made our own.
This country is still very young and with no tradition to fall back on, we must rely on the present and future hopes to get us through from day to day. Things are still evolving, governments can change, laws can change, and noone is forced to pray 5 times a day. You can basically do what you want with the except of crime.
Since the inception of the constitiution our government has worked hard to ensure the economy of this country grows. We haven't done the best job of that, but we are trying. Unfortunately, there is coruption running ramped in the gov., but when has there been a gov. where that wasn't the case?
So we defend our actions to preserve the Dollar, and keep America strong. We keep quiet because we don't want the competition. Russia would have been a bitch to defeat had we went to war. They had more soldiers, more weapons, and IMO a better training ground than the US. Good thing we solved that crisis at least for now.
I disagree about htis war being worse than Vietnam. That is a little bit dramatic to even compare the 2. Vietnam was about communism and human rights. This country was still young technology wise and was fighting the war the wrong way. You cannot expect to beat an enemy that is under ground, while your troops are marching through their target zone. This is why so many died.
The Iraqi war is different. We have superior firepower, more intelligent troops, better survilance equipment, and well trained men in the air and on the ground. The insurgents (Al Queda, Iraqis, Saddam Loyalists) are using there own people as bombs, as shields, and pointing to religion as their guide. This is not a fair way to proceed, but this is all they have left.
It's funny to me that other countries are calling this an illegal war, yet if anyone were to behead someone, their ass would be fried, you know what I'm saying?
The American torture of Iraqi prisoners is to be expected. When a country grants a ton of freedom on its people, those people generate thoughts and act out on their own. In Vietnam, women were raped, children beaten and tortured, ears cut off and used as tropheys, etc... Some fucked up shit was going on, by our own American people. Their lives were fucked because they were in a hopeless situation where their lives were constantly threatened, so they went insane.
In Iraq the soldiers lives are not as in danger, IMO. They are simply letting off steam. Noone was beheaded, toe nails ripped out, dicks chopped off or urethras opened wide with shards of glass. Nothing like this has happened. But it damn sure happened in Vietnam.
I guess I'm trying to say that war is hell, but neccessary to ensure the safety and security of America. We do not and cannot waver on this, otherwise, what other Nation would be capable of keeping guys like Bin Laden from attacking other countries, building armies, developing nuclear weapons and eventually destroying the earth? none.
I wish we were all of the same mindset or at least education to know the difference between right and wrong, but even in America, we cannot tell, otherwise hate groups like the Klan would not exist.
Sorry I'm so all over the map. A lot was said. Sorry Jeremy I must defend the war.
Oh yeah, Rumsfeld fucked up, and Brad is right about everything regarding the others. I see no conspiracies however, other than the blood for oil thing, which is becomming more and more apparent as we continue to fight in Iraq. If Saddam was the only bad guy, we would have left a long time ago, but he is not.
An one more thing - we went to war in Iraq not to free people, that was an excuse to get money from congress to save the airline industry after 911. Who you think makes all those planes over there? Boewing.
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews
-
MegaFighter_X
- Post Master General
- Posts: 2334
- Joined: 27 Apr 2003 16:52
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
It's a war of ideals. Who's ideals are good and bad. No, we shouldn't be controling the world as we see fit. If one person conrols the world, there will be dissenters, regardless of how well it's run.
Personally, I don't think war is an answer except if literally all else fails, including several attempts to peacefully resolve the conflict and talking it over with other countries, etc. diplomacy is not as strong as it was before, and that's really sad.
As for the picutres, it's really a disgrace to the armed forces that that even happened! But then again, in war, morals go down the shitter, don't they? Not to mention the love affair, the pregnancy... The two who are being targeted have good reason to be "shot at," meaning diciplined, etc. I'm thinking that background checks on the armed forces peoplen would be a good idea... but that would requite time we don't have.
Peronally, I think this needs not to be brought up. This shows that at least some of the americans have NO morals whatsoever. And I think in the world's eye, this has brought a disgrace to the United States. It's disgusting... I do belive vague orders were given from higher up, but I don't think that sort of thing was supposed to happen...
Personally, I don't think war is an answer except if literally all else fails, including several attempts to peacefully resolve the conflict and talking it over with other countries, etc. diplomacy is not as strong as it was before, and that's really sad.
As for the picutres, it's really a disgrace to the armed forces that that even happened! But then again, in war, morals go down the shitter, don't they? Not to mention the love affair, the pregnancy... The two who are being targeted have good reason to be "shot at," meaning diciplined, etc. I'm thinking that background checks on the armed forces peoplen would be a good idea... but that would requite time we don't have.
Peronally, I think this needs not to be brought up. This shows that at least some of the americans have NO morals whatsoever. And I think in the world's eye, this has brought a disgrace to the United States. It's disgusting... I do belive vague orders were given from higher up, but I don't think that sort of thing was supposed to happen...
John D
Tsiangkun wrote:Splint wrote:Had we done nothing in response they would have taken it as a sign of weakness and we would have been an open target to any and all terrorist organizations who had a beef with us.
I never said anything about Bushes actions making him or the country strong. I said not doing anything at all would have been taken as a sign of weakness. There is a big difference. By taking military action the US has proven only that it is not weak, and it has proven that lots of money can fund a very large military campaign. However, the US still has yet to prove it's strength.Tsiangkun wrote: Bushes actions don't make him a strong leader, or the country a strong nation.
My personal opinion is that to prove it's strength the US must come to a higher point in the war and then back out of Iraq, make more peaceful relationships with Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Israel/Palestine, Saudi Arabia etc. etc. etc. and make a sincere effort to bring the world up out of hunger and poverty on a massive scale.
How can you say it's not right to compare the two when what you just described is exactly the same as what's happening in Iraq (with the exception that this war is about Oil, Terrorism, and Islam)FlexThis wrote:I disagree about htis war being worse than Vietnam.... Vietnam was about communism and human rights. This country was... fighting the war the wrong way. You cannot expect to beat an enemy that is under ground, while your troops are marching through their target zone. This is why so many died.
COME ON... that is exactly what was happening in Vietnam except that the Vietnamese were pointing to Communism as their guide.FlexThis wrote:The Iraqi war is different. We have superior firepower, more intelligent troops, better survilance equipment, and well trained men in the air and on the ground. The insurgents (Al Queda, Iraqis, Saddam Loyalists) are using there own people as bombs, as shields, and pointing to religion as their guide. This is not a fair way to proceed, but this is all they have left.
Agreed. I work with several guys who were all in the Army. They served in Vietnam, Panama, and the Gulf War. All of them are thoroughly digusted by the Prisoner torture and they all think those soldiers involved should get the worst the Military can possibly throw at them.MegaFighter_X wrote:As for the picutres, it's really a disgrace to the armed forces that that even happened!
Old Skool
The united states is like a really large bear that got stung by a really tiny bee.
Obviously the bear can kill a bee easilly, but swinging at the hive out of anger is only going to get the bear stung again and again. Our bear isn't even swinging at the right hive anymore, he's just pissed at anything that looks like a bee.
Perhaps a stronger statement would be to own up to some of the real reasons we were attacked, and take responsibility for the hostility our actions foster around the planet.
If these people attacked us because they hate freedom and democracy . . . why are we trying to give [force upon by military installation] democracy to them ? Will they then be too occupied hating themselves to attack us ?
--Tsiangkun
Obviously the bear can kill a bee easilly, but swinging at the hive out of anger is only going to get the bear stung again and again. Our bear isn't even swinging at the right hive anymore, he's just pissed at anything that looks like a bee.
Perhaps a stronger statement would be to own up to some of the real reasons we were attacked, and take responsibility for the hostility our actions foster around the planet.
If these people attacked us because they hate freedom and democracy . . . why are we trying to give [force upon by military installation] democracy to them ? Will they then be too occupied hating themselves to attack us ?
--Tsiangkun
What is the really tiny bee sting that your refering to? That little twin towers insident?Tsiangkun wrote:The united states is like a really large bear that got stung by a really tiny bee.
Brandon Vasos
http://www.kittencomic.com
http://www.kittencomic.com
tiny bees doesn't imply tiny stingers.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the brits about colonies.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the brits about the IRA[s]
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the soviets about afganhistan.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the united states about vietnam.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the israelies about palestine.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, you must address the sources of the anger.
Without commiting massive attrocities, there is no way to defeat a guerilla unit. Of course America has shown that genocide is an acceptable option to defeat a guerilla unit. Just ask any native american family next time you can find one.
Until the united states is ready to accept responsibility for it's actions, and start providing terror groups a seat at the negotiation table, there will be no hope for peace. Of course we don't negotiate with terror groups . . . so there is little hope.
--Tsiangkun
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the brits about colonies.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the brits about the IRA[s]
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the soviets about afganhistan.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the united states about vietnam.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, ask the israelies about palestine.
You can not defeat a guerilla unit with a military, you must address the sources of the anger.
Without commiting massive attrocities, there is no way to defeat a guerilla unit. Of course America has shown that genocide is an acceptable option to defeat a guerilla unit. Just ask any native american family next time you can find one.
Until the united states is ready to accept responsibility for it's actions, and start providing terror groups a seat at the negotiation table, there will be no hope for peace. Of course we don't negotiate with terror groups . . . so there is little hope.
--Tsiangkun
-
HighDemonslayer
- Egyptian Footgod
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: 17 Jun 2003 19:34
- Location: Arizona
-Part 1-
I don't see what is the big deal is. Calling this prison behavior torture, or abuse is insensitive. They were just celebrating the diversity that makes America great.
The Arab world has to enlighten itself and enter the modern era.
In America, we have accepted that gay pyramids of naked men are good thing.... no, a required thing for all Americans to live a free life of equality.
Also part of this acceptance, is submitting to the domination of powerful women. Iraq can't be true modern democracy without letting women lead their men around on leashes, and allowing them complete control over their private parts.
Our fine senators had better be careful with their righteous comdemnation, they might offend some core constituency groups.
Anyways, America shouldn't tolerate, must less accomodate, those who hold homophobic, and sexist ideals.
-n
I don't see what is the big deal is. Calling this prison behavior torture, or abuse is insensitive. They were just celebrating the diversity that makes America great.
The Arab world has to enlighten itself and enter the modern era.
In America, we have accepted that gay pyramids of naked men are good thing.... no, a required thing for all Americans to live a free life of equality.
Also part of this acceptance, is submitting to the domination of powerful women. Iraq can't be true modern democracy without letting women lead their men around on leashes, and allowing them complete control over their private parts.
Our fine senators had better be careful with their righteous comdemnation, they might offend some core constituency groups.
Anyways, America shouldn't tolerate, must less accomodate, those who hold homophobic, and sexist ideals.
-n
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
-----------------------------------
-nathan
-----------------------------------
-nathan
-
HighDemonslayer
- Egyptian Footgod
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: 17 Jun 2003 19:34
- Location: Arizona
Ultimatly I want to quote pretty much every post here - but I thought I'd start with this one.Splint wrote: Now...Jeremy... you have the benefit of looking at this whole thing from an outside point of view. I can't say as I know a whole hell of a lot about Australia except that you don't drink Fosters, Sydney has a giant opera house, and INXS is an australian band. I also know this, Australia doesn't have any or many enemies because they don't have anything anyone else wants. It's not one of the wealthiest countries, it doesn't allow citizenship to ousiders very easily, it's cut off from the rest of the world (except New Zealand)(by the way, where's Old Zealand?), and it doesn't really have much developable space because so much of it is bushland.
So as I said, you have the ease and grace of being able to criticize what the US is involved in because your country is almost always at peace unless they follow someone else into war. Though if you look back into your own countries history you'll find the aboriginal tribes were treated even worse than the humiliated prisoners in Iraq (a dispicable, expectable, and never before televised event in any war).
Quite frankly Osama Bin Ladin opened up Pandora's Box when he ordered the destruction of the World Trade Center. There were no reasonable demands made, and there was no way the American Way Of Life (Capitalism and streets paved with gold and all that crap) was going to change for us to say "Oh gee we're sorry that we have and you don't. Thank goodness you murdered 2,500 innocent people and showed us the error of our ways". Had we done nothing in response they would have taken it as a sign of weakness and we would have been an open target to any and all terrorist organizations who had a beef with us.
So simply put Jeremy, I don't think you have the right to criticize the US as idealisticly as you do. I appreciate that you are aware of the need for peace, but I don't think you can appreciate what we've been through until the world come's along and spends a hundred years poking Australia in the nutsack and then gives you one big kick in the balls.
I do believe there was a better way to handle it than going to war in Iraq which is a country we had left in a "3rd World" state after the Gulf War, but be that as it may, it's too fuckin' late now and we just have to work with what we've got.
With any luck we'll be able to vote Bush right the fuck out of the White House and all his stupid fuckin right wing cronies along with him.
Sorry about the tones involved, but I'm heated. I like you Jeremy, I just think you're a little to far out on the left wing and not enough in the center.
Here is some info about Australia - Our government supports the war in Iraq - there are a few thousand soldiers in Iraq right now - all of which are highly trained. Australian soldiers are regarded as the best trained soldiers in the world (although I'm not proud of that at all). More importantly Australian soldiers have handed over some of the pows to US troops - that may have been involved in the torture. Legally this means that Australian soldiers are responsible for those pows - and have a duty of care over them. Now although the US is not part of the International Criminal Court - Australia is - and it is entirely possible that charges could be brought against Australia for what the US has done. It's unlikely that that will happen but definitly a possibility.
Two Australian citizens (David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib) has also been locked up in Gauntanamo for over 2 years without any rights what so ever. When his lawyer was asked last night in an interview if David had experienced any of the torture seen in Iraq, David's lawyer replied: "I'm not allowed to comment on that" - When pushed he said "I hope the US launch a full investigation into this" and later when asked if David had been subjected to a famous CIA torture of holding someone underwater - David's lawyer respond "He hasn't been tortured in the particular manner as far as I am aware." I don't think it's hard to read between the lines.
So Australia is heavily involved in this matter - it's just that we are a small country of only 20 million - so don't have much international weight - hence terrorist groups tend not focus on us - although there have been a number of attacks in Indonesia - one which killed 88 Australians - that have been aimed at us, and Al Queda have issued a number of warnings towards Australia.
Australia has been doing it's own little bit of imperalism throughout the Pacific. We lead a UN peace keeping force into East Timor - "Liberated" them and have now stolen 80% of their oil - which not only has no reason why it should belong to us - they are taking us to court over it.
We also sent "peace keeping" forces to the Solomon Islands - where they have been supporting a corrupt government - Sounds eerily familiar.
In regards to September 11. Al Queda had three demands after the attacks.
1. US remove all soldiers from Mecca.
2. US Stop supporting Israel
3. US stop supporting dictators in the Middle East.
While I am completely against much of what Al Queda does and supports - I am completely in favour of those demands.
Australia is far from perfect - I constantly criticise my own country - and many countries, however until the most recent government we have always been a strong support of building international harmony and have been responsible for the writing of many of the interational treaties and protocols that we are now in breach of.
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Senor Grommet
- Post Master General
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- Location: Greater Santa Cruz, CA
Aussie Jeremy,
I'll have you know that in no way am I in support of the war in iraq. As a libertarian, I do not support the US meddling in or sending troops to other countries whatsoever. I wish the US would mind its fucking business. Just thought Id let you know.
Secondly, I want to know your reasons for being completely in favor of Al Qaeda's demands of the US, specifically the one about Israel. What can you tell me to justify those beliefs? I am truly interested. (btw, I already know you hate the prez of Israel and what he stands for, so maybe you could gove me some other reasons?)
US Jeremy
I'll have you know that in no way am I in support of the war in iraq. As a libertarian, I do not support the US meddling in or sending troops to other countries whatsoever. I wish the US would mind its fucking business. Just thought Id let you know.
Secondly, I want to know your reasons for being completely in favor of Al Qaeda's demands of the US, specifically the one about Israel. What can you tell me to justify those beliefs? I am truly interested. (btw, I already know you hate the prez of Israel and what he stands for, so maybe you could gove me some other reasons?)
US Jeremy
Last edited by Senor Grommet on 13 May 2004 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
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ShredPirate
- Punkass
- Posts: 1090
- Joined: 03 May 2003 15:57
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Contact:
Al Quada Demands
1. Remove US troops from Mecca.
I support this for two reasons. Firstly it is very offensive to Muslims that the troops are there. Imagine you went to church and there was a hardcore fundamentalist muslim with an uzi standing at the back of the church - you would feel a bit angry/scared/pissed off at the situation. And it's entirely unneccessary. The other reason is that the government of Saudi Arabia is corrupt and very badly abusive of human rights. Just as bad as Saddam Huissain was in my opinion. Supporting them in their oppression of the people of Saudi Arabia is wrong in my opinion - no matter what financial benifits the US is getting from it.
2. US stop supporting dictators in the Middle East.
Not only does the US support for dictators give them added legitimacy - and undermine efforts to bring democracy to the Middle East - it makes the US look like hypocrites when its leaders say things like "I love democracy" and it has lead to a number of problems - such as the present war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan and no doubt more wars to come.
3. The US stop supporting Israel.
This has nothing to do with the actions of the Palestinians. Their actions are also wrong. However the current Israeli government is one that is in breach of a number of international conventions. It constantly shows little or no regard for human rights and is lead by a number of people who are being investigated for war crimes and crimes against humanity including genocide. The conflict is a complicated one - but by taking a particular side in the conflict the US is giving the Israelis more legitmacy in its actions - actions that have repeatadly been condemned by the international community, the UN and many human rights groups. They US support is also isolating arabs everywhere and making them feel like the US is racist in its current international policy. Rather than bringing more peace to the world - it is creating more conflict. I don't think the conflict in Israel is a matter of who is right and wrong - those matters are always hard to judge - however I think those that are right are those working towards real lasting peace and giving weapons to either side cannot possibly make peace a more achievable outcome.
1. Remove US troops from Mecca.
I support this for two reasons. Firstly it is very offensive to Muslims that the troops are there. Imagine you went to church and there was a hardcore fundamentalist muslim with an uzi standing at the back of the church - you would feel a bit angry/scared/pissed off at the situation. And it's entirely unneccessary. The other reason is that the government of Saudi Arabia is corrupt and very badly abusive of human rights. Just as bad as Saddam Huissain was in my opinion. Supporting them in their oppression of the people of Saudi Arabia is wrong in my opinion - no matter what financial benifits the US is getting from it.
2. US stop supporting dictators in the Middle East.
Not only does the US support for dictators give them added legitimacy - and undermine efforts to bring democracy to the Middle East - it makes the US look like hypocrites when its leaders say things like "I love democracy" and it has lead to a number of problems - such as the present war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan and no doubt more wars to come.
3. The US stop supporting Israel.
This has nothing to do with the actions of the Palestinians. Their actions are also wrong. However the current Israeli government is one that is in breach of a number of international conventions. It constantly shows little or no regard for human rights and is lead by a number of people who are being investigated for war crimes and crimes against humanity including genocide. The conflict is a complicated one - but by taking a particular side in the conflict the US is giving the Israelis more legitmacy in its actions - actions that have repeatadly been condemned by the international community, the UN and many human rights groups. They US support is also isolating arabs everywhere and making them feel like the US is racist in its current international policy. Rather than bringing more peace to the world - it is creating more conflict. I don't think the conflict in Israel is a matter of who is right and wrong - those matters are always hard to judge - however I think those that are right are those working towards real lasting peace and giving weapons to either side cannot possibly make peace a more achievable outcome.