Abortion

ShredStylez · Post by **ShredStylez** » 08 Jun 2004 17:58

Do you agree with it in any form and if so y?

and if not why?

I don't

Zippo · Post by **Zippo** » 08 Jun 2004 18:20

I'd say that it's ok in like the case of severe handicap... cause i know at least personally i wouldn't wanna live like that, nor would i want my child to have to live like that.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » 08 Jun 2004 20:38

Just fish around, you'll find your prey very quickly!

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 08 Jun 2004 20:48

I believe in abortion. I know i wont be able to convince anyone who doesnt believe in it, so I guess I wont try to.

1 thing tho:
I guess a woman has the right to abort for the same reason that a family member has the right to pull the plug on another family member who is unable to communicate the desire to takle his/her own life. In some cases, the person should be given the rights to control/decide the fate of another "person" when that person is unable to decide himself/herself.

strumpfm · Post by **strumpfm** » 09 Jun 2004 02:04

i agree with abortion, and like jeremy will not be convincing anyone to change their minds. i don't belive abortion is murdering a living being unless it is a post birth abortion (post birth being once the kid has popped out). the right to abort shouldn't be a decision made by a secular government because in cases of issues like this when we are only effecting ourselves, the government isn't in place to place moral guidelines on our lives.

mark, why don't you belive abortion is correct?

a lot of people voiced their opinions here, and probably still feel the same way.

ShredStylez · Post by **ShredStylez** » 09 Jun 2004 04:40

The one thing that i dont really understand is why people say it is a womans body, its not the womans body its the child's.

I believe a child becomes a child at conception because right at that point a completely unique organism is created that will learn to love someone else, choose where its going to go in live and quiet possibly could've done some miraculous thing in it's life.

Just remember one thing about abortion YOUR mom had the choice too.

14 days after conception a child has a heartbeat, and after 28 days the child has brain waves and fully developed nerve endings that feel pain while in the most common form of abortion, it is being sucked out of the womb 20 times more powerfully than a household vacuum cleaner.

Its the most heartwrenching and disturbing thing to go look at pictures of the sucking procedure along with all the others where the baby has to be placed back together piece by piece just to see if the got it all.

Lastly, Why should a person not have the right to live because they are handicapped or because a mother doesnt Want the child?
Many physically and mentally handicapped people have excelled in extrordinary areas to touch millions of lives.

And if a mother doesn't want a child quit screwing around and get ur life in check.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 09 Jun 2004 06:38

Sorry to say, but most of your arguments are totally flawed and based more on personal opinion than anything else.

ShredStylez wrote:The one thing that i dont really understand is why people say it is a womans body, its not the womans body its the child's.

Spoken by someone who truly knows nothing about childbirth. How about I put a little alien in your body. This little alien will make you sick, fat, unable to perform normal functions, and overly emotional for 9 months. Now lucky you, being male, we'll say this little alien will only grow to be the size of a Lemon. Well it's ready to come out now and guess what...it's gonna squeeze out your pee hole. Still sound like it's not your body? Wanna be more realistic... how about squeezing a grapefruit out your asshole instead?
The fact of the matter is that the Woman's body is the one most involved.

I believe a child becomes a child at conception because right at that point a completely unique organism is created that will learn to love someone else, choose where its going to go in live and quiet possibly could've done some miraculous thing in it's life.

Well they say that "ignorance is bliss". How about the baby grows up with a mother that didn't want it, or gets adopted by a couple who just aren't good parents, or the baby has complications due to mommy being a Crack addict. Or how about the fairly simple circumstance that the baby grows up to be a Hitler, Stalin, Osama, Bush

, or any old run of the mill pychopath or just plain felon?
Understand that a majority of abortions are carried out by women who are in one or more of the following categories: under the age of 25, uneducated, in low socioeconomic standing, broken homes, rape, battered, unmarried and not cohabitating, with no insurance etc....
Any one of those circumstances can help create a horrible life for an infant. Yes a babies love is obvious when it's a baby...but you can't forget that they will grow up and become products of the environment they grow up in. If that environment is shitty the product most often turns out shitty.

Just remember one thing about abortion YOUR mom had the choice too.

Exactly, she HAD A CHOICE. If my mother had chosen any differently I would not have been consciously aware of any of it. If I was, it would have been over faster than you can type a single letter.

14 days after conception a child has a heartbeat, and after 28 days the child has brain waves and fully developed nerve endings that feel pain while in the most common form of abortion, it is being sucked out of the womb 20 times more powerfully than a household vacuum cleaner.

After 14 days the fetus is possibly the equivalent of a lizard. It has no "higher" brain functions. The same with 28 days or even 90 days. There is no higher consciousness. I will grant you that there is the potential for that higher consciousness, but you can say that about a computer too.

Its the most heartwrenching and disturbing thing to go look at pictures of the sucking procedure along with all the others where the baby has to be placed back together piece by piece just to see if the got it all.

Then don't look at the pictures. That's what Doctors do.. not you and I. You'd be disgusted to see what they do to your food before you eat it too.

Lastly, Why should a person not have the right to live because they are handicapped or because a mother doesnt Want the child?

I hate to put it this way, but a fetus is not a person. Again, it is developing and has the potential to become a person, but it's not a person. People have a funny way of making things what they want them to be. For instance... we give women's names to boats and cars. We call the earth our mother and our girlfriends we call bitches or princesses or we treat black's, arabs, and jews as something other than human.

More specifically, I am a father of a 14 month old little girl. She is the light of my life and I couldn't imagine living a single day without her. From the moment we found out my wife was pregnant we acted as though the baby was going to be part of our lives. I spent a lot of time talking to my wifes belly and playing music for the baby through headphones. This is the stuff I used to help create and envision that fetus as my child. In our situation we cared equally for my wifes well being and the baby's.
Other people do no feel that way. Some fathers punch their wives or girlfriends in the stomach to induce an abortion, some leave, some cry, some commit suicide. In their own ways they create the reality of their own situtation and believe the fetus to be whatever they will.

Many physically and mentally handicapped people have excelled in extrordinary areas to touch millions of lives.

And many more die before they are 2. And many more have no one to take care of them when their parents are gone. And many more have parents who resent them. And many more live miserable existances as "vegetables".

And if a mother doesn't want a child quit screwing around and get ur life in check.

Spoken like someone who has done it and ridiculously thinks everyone should be able to or like someone who hasn't got a fucking clue as to what it means to be a woman or man or anyone in any sort of bad situation. Perhaps middle class white suburbia is where you hang your hat?

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 09 Jun 2004 11:22

I agree with Brad, except for a point I don't think anyone has made.

Partial Birth Abortions: I am against them with exceptions. Partial birth abortion is where the baby (yes I said baby) is removed from the mother and a sharp instrument is used to poke a hole in the babies head to kill it.

There is no suction performed, the baby is delivered and then killed intentionally by the Dr. The only exceptions I see for this procedure are illness, rape, and certain rare circumstances.

As for abortion in general, I see nothing wrong with a woman's right to choose.

Matt · Post by **Matt** » 10 Jun 2004 08:16

ShredStylez wrote: I believe a child becomes a child at conception because right at that point a completely unique organism is created that will learn to love someone else, choose where its going to go in live and quiet possibly could've done some miraculous thing in it's life.

So, if you murder someone, should you be charged with the murder of all the children, grandchildren, and so on that they WOULD have had? They all had potential to become people and do miraculous things. Maybe all the sperm in a mans body? they all may have created a unique organism.

SpaceMonkey · Post by **SpaceMonkey** » 10 Jun 2004 09:24

I personally am against abortion. I would never do it and would strongly urge other people to think about their decision, but I still believe that there are many circumstances that would merit a abortion. I guess what I'm saying is that I would never do it, but I can see how some people would.

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 10 Jun 2004 10:59

I'm pro-choice. Don't take away someone's choice to do something... that's not really any of your business. I have just grown up having people tell me how to live my life, and I don't want to be doing that to any other capable human being. I can't really say that I "support" abortion... it slightly disturbs me, and I haven't come up with a strong stance on it. I just think that there should be a choice.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 10 Jun 2004 19:34

They conceal the health/psychological damage that the procedure causes.

It's an industry, like Big Tobacco.

-n

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 10 Jun 2004 23:07

Nathan,
why dont you post what you really think? What did that add to the disussion?

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 10 Jun 2004 23:35

What do you mean ,what I really think?

I thought I added something.

-n

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 11 Jun 2004 00:11

This topic usually just goes back and forth between the:
"Women have the right...." vs. "Baby killer" arguments.

And we know how that gets us nowhere.

So I'll use these more interesting, and thought provoking angles:

1. State's rights - If my state wants to make abortion illegal, then they should be allowed.
Pro-abortion folks are anti-choice. It's not enough that half the states would permit abortion anyway, but they have to force the ALL of them to allow it also.
Forcing abortion on everybody violates states rights.

2. Genocide- The black population has abortions at a higher rate then the rest of the population (in America). Their growth is negligible, and will be swept aside in all aspects of society, by the other growing ethnic groups.

Blacks will constantly elect white liberals who will make sure blacks continue to exterminate themselves.

3. Death of the West- Europe and the U.S. can't sustain their populations with native growth. This is not because of abortion alone, of course. There are other causes.

Is that enough for now? I have another point that is not religion related, but maybe later.

-n

MegaFighter_X · Post by **MegaFighter_X** » 11 Jun 2004 01:31

I'm pro choice. Although it can be used the wrong way (a form of contraceptive, as such.), I belive it should be allowed, but controled. Granted, there would be ways around it, both legal and nonlegal, but no system is perfect.

cases that should allow abortions:
1. Rape: Yes, the kid could have a wonderful life. But it may end up paining the mom. A constant reminder of what happened is what I see here.

2. Death of Mother: Due to whatever complications a mother may not be able to live through childbirth. Although it could be said that the child being born is more important that the mother's life, it woudl be awfully hard on the child without the mother.

3. Possiblity of major complications: Drugs, alcohol, tobacco. Those would be sources of complications. But those using this excuse would not be able to have another abortion in this manner for a certain amount of time, and would have to undergo evaluations of some sort.

Beyond that... only if you REALLY fucked up should you be allowed to abort. I agree that the government shoudln't be able to tell us what to do with our bodies (females in this case), but there should be some sort of regulation...

smpdustin15 · Post by **smpdustin15** » 13 Jun 2004 23:17

i believe like most said im for it i believe that there are circumstances and it is the womans body but they should talk them through it and it shouldnt be a birth control device, then that woman should be shot cause screwin around then having an abortion is just plain stupid and cruel

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 14 Jun 2004 05:13

I'm on the fence in this debate, I'm not extremely situated on either side.

Without abortion our world would be over populated.

Allowing hassle-free abortions could make it considered a contraceptive, letting kids have sex with less consequence because they can just abort if the worst situation arises.. Abortions should be an option for extreme cases, not childish negligence.

I just finished reading a book called "The Profit" by Frank E. Piretti. It looked at the bad side of abortion, the capitalist side of clinics that rush through their 50+ abortions a day and get paid real nice sums of money for each abortion. It looks at how the privacy of the woman getting the abortion allowed clinics to cover up botched abortions resulting in death of the mother. Now this book was written by a christian author, so it could be considered biased but it wasn't written that way.

The debate will never be settled, its just another issue that divides humanity and it sucks.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 14 Jun 2004 08:39

no edit button?

I kinda think it's unusual that until the mom gives birth to the child it has no rights, but once its removed from the uterus its a human being.. its like one second it's a fetus, and another it's a human that can be murdered, and what warrants the fetus is officially a human? the slap on the behind?

I don't know what to think.

dblthnk84 · Post by **dblthnk84** » 14 Jun 2004 09:37

MegaFighter_X wrote:only if you REALLY fucked up should you be allowed to abort.

I don't think anyone who wasn't in that condition would be able to have an abortion.

like Seath said though, were do you draw the line. What makes the baby different the moment it comes out of the womb, from when it still was in there. Physically and mentially I don't think it made any major changes in those seconds.