guiltless discusion

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 25 Jul 2004 10:02

I have been under the impression that once you reached a certain level of play guiltless should be a goal. This was instilled upon me by veterans like Sunil Jani and Zerbe. I now realize several people disagree.

I think Thomass put it best when he said "I don't shred for anyone but myself and I like 2 adds so I'll throw them in." or something along those lines.
Great arguement however if you want to be considered a top freestyler, and a possible BAP contender, you aren't just shredding for yourself, you are representing you're skillz for the footbagging world.

I'd like to hear some other peoples thoughts.....
I have a feeling this topic might go the way of the both sides topic I raised a while back where everyone says how lame and unimportant throwing both sides are, and then almost every video you see from the top of the world to the newbies bust bsos all the time, and there isn't a single footbag video(casset) out there without drills on it.....but anyway lets discuss

sampotter · Post by **sampotter** » 25 Jul 2004 12:16

I think throwing things into your runs both sides should be relative. When I think of it, I think of the movie of Sebastien hitting armageddon, and at the end some one calls out for him to hit it bsos and he practically does. So if you're a newbie, throwing in your basics both sides isn't a drill, it's busting both sides, because that's where you're at.

Anyway, as to playing guiltless... I think that it should be a goal of everyone in the sense that they should be capable of playing at that level. It seems to me playing at that level and hitting runs of 15-25 contacts show a certain degree of mastery over a lot of components, and shows a good amount of endurance. If anything, I'd guess it improves your game due to linking harder tricks and hitting them more often. If instead of hitting a clipper set leg over, you hit schmoe, you're not just schooling leg over, you're schooling stepping AND your leg overs. That's the way I've always looked at it, but I could be wrong.

If players like Ryan want to throw in things like far leg overs, I don't see why that's a problem. After all, he can definitely play guiltless if he wants to. I mean, Vasek does his little parlor trick run every once in a while, same with Schneider -- clipper > xbd sole > pincher > etc. Half of the tricks in those are guilts. Further, is 3 adds or higher a good representation of how hard a trick is to be considered acceptable? Does the trick have to be hard to hit it? Are tricks when you school them so much that they're second nature, in fact, hard? After all, adds are bs anyway. What about a trick like... Reverse swirling toe stall? That's a hard trick! But a two add. I'd wager it's harder than a LOT of 3 adds, and some 4 adds.

I think over all it's probably relative. If you're busting in front of BAP and you throw in a stylistic flying clipper or something, or as mentioned above, reverse swirling toe, I don't think they'll chew you out or anything. Hell, they may like you more for not being a machine and showing a little style.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 25 Jul 2004 21:04

I say do whatever makes you happy.

Personally I like to push myself - to hit runs as hard as I am capable of hitting. - I tend to think butterfly is harder than clipper - so I hit butterflies instead of clippers. I don't want to though - I'd rather be hitting barflies or superflies or nemesis' - but in my opinion a good run has two things - diffilculty (in the links and individual moves. I also count variety as part of diffilculty) and length. At the moment I can't hit good runs without the odd bail. But I still make the filler moves as hard as I can. I have a lot of highly drilled combos that I use to get momentum in a run and as filler - stuff like ripwalk>blur>smear>dimwalk is a combo I could repeat forever (well almost) - so you could almost call that a bail.

To me it really depends what kind of run I'm trying to hit. The longer I want the run to be, the easier the moves I hit are. When I'm doing a demo or something for a crowd, I'm quite happy to through in some guilts - because in that situation I don't want to drop the bag at all.

I can see that going guiltless is a good thing to aim for for developing players, but once you reach that level you don't have to be restricted by it. I think you should do what you think is right for your game.

max · Post by **max** » 26 Jul 2004 00:02

Everyone and their brother are doing butterflies these days. It's over-kill. I'd much rather see a clipper in some occasions. Same thing for pdx mirage vs. far legover or far pickup. You sometimes see people running/jumping just to nail that butterfly after a hard trick. Ok so it's "sealed" still it doesn't look all that good. my 2 cents

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 26 Jul 2004 14:57

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 26 Jul 2004 20:49

yeh im thinking the same as Damon, its great to have a standard for higher level play and Guiltless is definitely a realistic one for pretty much everybody and is good way to gauge ur ability with other ppl across the world. I dont mind tooo much if a player, who i already know is perfectly capable of shredding strongly guiltless, drops in the odd 2 add for fun or because it looks good.. because i know that they are easily capable of doing with out it... i try not to because i dont find guiltlessness easy yet so want to keep pushing myself at that level

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 27 Jul 2004 10:12

Lots of interesting comments.
It seems that a lot of Europeans didn't have Bap players saying "2 adds are NO-NOs" at their first tourneys, so I can see why more of them aren't as brainwashed into disliking clippers and far legovers.
And as far as swirling toes and pinchers go I don't realy consider those part of this discusion. I am refering to basic two adds, the components of what should be 3 adds ie clipper, leg over, spinning toe stall...

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 28 Jul 2004 00:58

technically, a far pickup and a paradox mirage have the same difficulty.
However, a Paradox mirage will often be seen as a standard bail, while
far pickup is being frowned upon being a 2-add.

People are so hung up about adds these days.

sPinko-Mania · Post by **sPinko-Mania** » 28 Jul 2004 01:18

if you want to be considered a top freestyler, and a possible BAP contender, you aren't just shredding for yourself, you are representing you're skillz for the footbagging world.

I think from the outset you have made some decision about what constitutes a 'top freestyler'. Presumably always going guiltless is one of the things which is neccessary. I disagree.

I'm about at the stage where I can go guiltless, although not particularly well because it will cut down my run length (pretty obvious I guess). I'll go guiltless in my own time I think, although I'll never have any problem with putting a guilt in, or anyone else doing the same. It all depends on why you shred, and who you shred for.

Adhering to some special but arbitrary level of difficulty (based on adds of all things) that someone else has invented is not important to my shred. I'll define what my bails are, for instance if I bail to toe, I pass. But far legover? No, at least not at the moment.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 28 Jul 2004 15:22

sPinko-Mania · Post by **sPinko-Mania** » 28 Jul 2004 20:31

Give that man a prize, he just won this thread in one line

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 29 Jul 2004 06:24

yeah but that's what I said in my first line

I say do whatever makes you happy.

Flex was just trying to have his name against every sub forum...

P.S. I completely agree with what he said though!

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 29 Jul 2004 07:10

modified

guiltless discusion

guiltless discusion

Re: guiltless discusion