Sexism (chivalry???)

[Muffinman]

This is one of the subjects I feel most strongly about in life.

I think I am a nice person. I think if you were to ask anyone who knows me they would probably agree. But being expected to be traditionally "chivalrous" really pisses me off. I like to do nice things for people regardless of gender. Being held to expectations like pulling out a chair for a girl or holding doors open frustrates me. It's not even that I expect equal treatment in return but rather am discouraged by "society" telling women that this is one-way treatment. "Women and girls should expect and recieve 'special treatment' and not feel obligated to reciprocate".

Chivalry can be a beautiful, charming presentation of respect. The traditional definition, however, is a bastardization of sexual equality: "The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women." This would be a good time to point out that I have absolutely nothing against women (generally speaking). I have a girlfriend that I love more than anything else in the world. If anything (and she can validate this) I am more [stereotypically] 'woman' than 'man'. I am very sensative and "understanding". I feel shamed to be a man by the stereotypes beset upon my gender and angered by those who roleplay those stereotypes. If I had the option to be born over again and choose my own gender I would be a girl in the snap of a finger (realizing (from my own opinion) that being a woman is 100 times harder than being a man).

Sexual equality means sexual EQUALITY.
That's about all I have to say right now at 5:30 in the morning. Debate

[max]

Yeah I just do the basics: open doors, pull out chairs. the rules of chivalry are numerous though. For example when walking up/down stairs with a girl you should be walking ahead if walking up and she should be walking ahead if walking down (so as to avoid glimpsing at her ankles!!!). Also if you think that opeing the door of a restaurant to let your woman in first is right, you'd be mistaken, the guy should enter first so as to make sure that the establishment is "respectable" and that accompagnying woman may step inside. I agree that some of these "rules" are a bit far-fetched in this day and age esp. concerning our generation. Then every now and then you meet the odd girl that is shocked that you should open the door for her or leave her your seat on a bus/train because of sexual-equality. Women refusing these signs of chivalry directly contribute to the loss of manners I think (esp. regarding leaving your seat for other people in public transport).
Bon, I've gone off topic a bit.

[Muffinman]

I think you possibly missed my point?
My point is that on equal terms women should also be walking behind us descending the stairs as not to steal a glimpse of "his" ankles. (Ie: "Chivalry" is a crock of fucking nonsense -- Chivalry on the other hand is the "art" of respecting your opposing gender whether it be male or female.)

[max]

well yes on equal terms women should also be pulling out chairs for us, going out to cut down a tree to get some lumber for the long winter ahead etc... but would you really want that?

[FlexThis]

Yes,

We do want that. Both my wife and I work, which is not unlike most couples these days. While out in public I try to accomodate her needs and make her feel special, but at home who do you think cuts the lawn? Who do you think cooks dinner? Who holds the door for who?

We know all the rules, and sometimes we follow them. Other times we are like who gives a fuck and we do what we want or have time to deal with. My wife cuts the lawn, I cook dinner quite often, and do the laundry. Her drive home from work is twice that of mine. So I accomodate her by making life a little easier for when she first gets home. She does the same for me when I get home late. We look at it as common sense and not some chivalrous act.

Although I think my wife feels more like a woman when I do things for her, she is in no way expecting them. And often times returns the favor out of common curtousy. We share jobs as equals, and look at it as who has time to do this or that, not who traditionally should do it.

Politically Correct 50s tradition is as dead as Mr. Rogers and don't expect it to magically come back anytime soon. Families are doing what families need to do to get by day to day. If that means chivalry goes out the window, then see ya, we don't have time nor patients to revert back to the 50s.

Often times my wife will order for me at restaraunts. I hate talking to people in public and she knows this, she is not about to force me to do something that makes me cringe in the name of chivalry. I don't make her cook dinner, iron clothes, vacuum, and knit sweaters. Come on, this is 2004 and times are way more complicated. We have less time to be together, less time to get things done, so we just do it. We don't try to complicate matters by following some old school format to handle up-to-date issues. Regardless, we still have love and respect for each other which goes without speech or act of kindness. If you've ever been married you will understand.

[shreddaily]

Speaking of equality why do guys get so psyched when a girl hits a 6 add.
Who cares is a chick hits foodprocessor or shooting butterfly, lots of PEOPLE can hit those moves. I'll give props to a female when she beats me in shred 30.

hahahaha just kidding, adding fuel to the fire is fun.

[MegaFighter_X]

Because it's a milestone. Also, off topic, Nice avitar Shred.

Ok, my take on this is if you do it, you show that you are that much nicer. If you don't do it though, it's no big concern in this day and age. It's more about curtosy than anything else.

[Juana]

interesting to read all of your perspectives. is that a challenge nate?
ANyway, I side with what Damon says for the most part. this is typically how Alex and I operate. we're 50/50 everything...there is no job he can do that I can't do, vice versa...just depends on who has time for what. I think chivalry is an odd thing...my dad does it and it drives me crazy...I"ll be walking down the sidewalk talking...we'll cross the street and while i'm still talking to him, he's dropping back behind me so I'm having to turn around <confused...what is he doing?...> and then he'll get on the otherside of me. finally I called him out on it...why do you keep doing that? sometimes we'd cross the street in such a way he needed to re-position to be on the street side of me. oh, of course, so that no horses come buy and splash me or something to that effect. i really find it annoying.

Manners on the otherhand. I'm down with manners...especially when it when hygene and sanitation are concerned. also, i get pissed when i hold a door open for someone and they don't say thanks. i get pissed when people don't hold the door open for me if I'm right behind them. i think it's weird if a guy opens a car door for me or wont let me order (situational).

here's something i have notice that really trips me out. when i were pants i am generally treated more equally. the second i put a skirt on, *poof* men are opening doors for me, offering to take me coat, etc...small things like that. that's annoying and I really don't like the way it makes me feel...like I'm different...like i'm a "lady" in the traditional sense.

and hey, let's not get into how a lot of these men that act all chivelrous are the same men that are paying us women lower wages and fewer opportunities for professional growth when we do the same exact job or have the same amount of experience as the next guy. Arrrrrgggghhhhhh....just try working for the government sometime. they are the worst!!! trust me, i know...i work for County government now and I used to work for USGS. Private sector is much better for women in my opinion...at least if you're in a technical or science position like me.

man, I am on the rampage today. saying all sorts of shit today.

[Muffinman]

Oooo. Good points. Chivalry isn't "the 'art' of respecting your opposing gender whether it be male or female." Chivalry is respecting people

[sPinko-Mania]

Chivalry is normally just sexism dressed up to look nice. Same way that lots of racial comments are just racism dressed up to look nice. "Black people have good rhythm", "Asian people are great at maths", those sorts of comments often aren’t viewed as negative things, but of course when you question what they imply about other 'races' then you see why they're flawed.

Chivalry is harder to pin down of course, since I open doors for women and men, but I do it for the same reason. If I only opened them for women because of some silly idea about women being 'the weaker sex' or more deserving of courtesy than others then it would be a different story. I still suffer from this at times though, I think everyone does, it's just a matter of when you recognise it's a bad thing or not. Most people just do it out of sheer unthinking tradition I think. For instance; you're picking up a girl from the airport, do you offer to carry her luggage? What about if it's a guy of the similar build/strength?

[HighDemonslayer]

Don't you guys listen to Eminem? You gotta beat that bitch.


lol


-n

[SpaceMonkey]

Don't you guys listen to Eminem? You gotta beat that bitch

Thank you for that. I always laugh my ass off at beating bitches jokes.