When we're 40

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 11 Sep 2004 20:21

it's all just about the WAY you do moves, and having the muscle to hit them.

imagine doing a flail and the landing is soft because your style is efficient.

now imagine someone hitting a flail, and they learned to do it a different way; they make a hard sound while landing, and they land more on their heel than on the ball of their foot.

now who will have knee problems in the future? the second guy.
i think this question has too many factors to calculate, but eventually people will start training 'the right way', and this will add 20+ years of play to your life.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 11 Sep 2004 20:26

ShredPirate wrote:it's all just about the WAY you do moves, and having the muscle to hit them.

imagine doing a flail and the landing is soft because your style is efficient.

now imagine someone hitting a flail, and they learned to do it a different way; they make a hard sound while landing, and they land more on their heel than on the ball of their foot.

now who will have knee problems in the future? the second guy.
i think this question has too many factors to calculate, but eventually people will start training 'the right way', and this will add 20+ years of play to your life.

And 20+ rolled ankles per shred because landing on the ball of ur foot is the eaisiest position for your ankle to roll from.

Spadrick · Post by **Spadrick** » 11 Sep 2004 21:08

Rule One: Everyone is different. From style to muscular structure and more.
Rule Two: As you do something over and over again, your body adapts to do that thing efficiently and effectively.

I would like to believe that there is a comfortable medium in this topic. I mean, sure, the things that we do with our legs are not natural for humans as a whole, but they will become natural for us. As we train and exercise the correct muscles, doing what we do will be second nature and our body will adapt.

Also boosting this point is the fact that as we do something over and over, we will become mentally adept at doing it safely. Thus putting less stress on our body. People say that long distance runners and gymnasts are in the best shape overall, and what they do is relatively safe. They are asumed to grow older and still be in great shape. Footbag can be the same way IMHO.

Im 21, been shredding for a year or so. I experience minor shin splints now and then, my back creaks occasionally, and my knee is giving me hell. This brings up Rule Three;

Rule Three: Without proper physical training or over exertion, you are liable to hurt yourself.

What I am saying is that, we dont have physical trainers showing us exercises to improve the physical game, and we dont have alot of education about how the leg, hip and ankle work (generalization, im sure some of us do). Maybe we need an online resource regarding care of legs, hips and ankles, including conditions and remedies, how to create longevity in the sport?

As for me, I'm not to worried about leg ailments, I know when I go to far and I like to pace myself. Even if I wasn't able to play footbag anymore, I would still be involved one way or another.

the Executioner · Post by **the Executioner** » 11 Sep 2004 23:07

I suppose I should chime in since I'm getting mentioned so much.

I started playing seriously at around age 16, in 1986, 18 years ago. It's true that the game was different back then but at the time I was doing thousands of consecutives and many hours of playing a day. I have practiced consistently since then. I have never had a major injury in my life from footbag, nor serious shin splints. I have worn the worst, believe me, shoes of any footbag player in history. There were times when my shoes didnt have soles, only duct tape.
I am 34 and feel like I am still improving, and these days I feel as if I'm playing the best I've ever played.

So, how can you pull this off and shred happily until you are old and grey?

1. Technique and style. I naturally play light on my feet. Pinkus is correct when he recommends playing on the balls of your feet. You will not destroy your ankles, you will save your knees. The less noise you make hitting tricks, the less impact and stress on your body. Simple fact.
If you play heavy, find a way to play lighter.

2. Body type, as Jane mentioned. Unfortunately we have less control of this one, but it makes a difference. Your knees support most of your body, so the lighter you are the less stress. Simple fact. Work with what you've got.

3. Stretching. I am amazed at how few footbag players stretch. I have spent my entire career stretching. And when I say stretching, I mean stretching, not 10 seconds here 10 seconds there. Learn to stretch correctly, study yoga, or find someone who knows what they are doing.

4. Body awareness and self observation. Learn to be aware of what you are doing wrong when playing. It takes practice. As Pinkus says, it's all about the WAY you do the moves. Learn to feel deeply into your body and listen to signals. If the body says stop, then stop. Know your limits.

5. Ignore negative suggestions. In western culture, there is a belief that most people buy into that getting older=deterioration. This is bullshit, but you have to truly BELIEVE that it's bullshit. This topic is a book in itself and is a big part of whether or not you will play until you are "old". Many martial arts believe that you dont reach your physical peak until your 50's. Many great martial artists train WAY harder and put much more physical stress on their bodies than us....and start training from a very young age I might add... and retain their powers until old age. It's about belief systems and getting free of conditioning. Most people never get free of conditioning and dont even know that they live according to someone else's false beliefs. It starts when you are a child and never stops, so you have to be aware. Good luck.

6. Intelligent play. I know what tricks and concepts put more stress on my body, so I simply dont do those tricks. This is important, especially as you get older. For example, I know that my knees aren't fond of barraging moves, so I don't do many of them these days. There is so much to chose from in freestyle that you will never do everything all the time, so learn what your body does and does not like. You'll never run out of options even if you have to drop alot of material from your vocabulary.

7. Treat yourself well. How is your diet? Stress level? Are you happy or just pissed off all the time? Do you like your job? All this affects your long term physical and mental health and therefore your game.

These are a few things off the top of my head at 2:45 am. I'm not promising the fountain of youth, aging is a fact of life, but anyone who looks honestly at their game will be able to find things to improve. Small improvements over time will make a big difference.
Also, I dont consider myself old. Even 40 or 50 is not old. I know 50 and 60 year olds that are in better shape than some 20 year olds, but they worked for it and earned it. So get to work.

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 11 Sep 2004 23:10

david wrote:that comment was made becuase he tweaked his knee, not becuase hes old. he just got injured.

ya, sry i didn't explain myself but i was under the impression tom knew about that since he asked about kenny specifically.

To add to the convo,

I think if someone starts playing before or during puberty and doesn't try anything outragous, but just school their basics and builds a good foundation for freestyle will be a stronger player overall and will be able to play for much longer. But if they put so much strain on their body from playing too much or trying to bust huge tricks, they might shorten their playing time. Again this is just speculation.

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 12 Sep 2004 01:36

wow i think i may have to save this page, Pete's comments seem to be right on the money! thanks for that! I think you would be one to know, having been in the game for so long, and playing so incredibly well, as you said possibly even better now than several years ago... awesome

Im not really sure about the 'starting young' argument. id like to believe that if u start early like Vasek your body would develop into a footbagging weapon and you would have less physical problems later on and you would just be better, quicker than everyone else
but i would also wonder if starting so early may cause your body to take too much punishment during development and you may end up with WORSE problems later on. With our sport being so young, we only have a few people to guage this idea on, those being the likes of Pete, Kenny, Rippin' etc. I think Vasek is the prime example of my second point, whether pushing so hard from a young age is good or bad...

HG · Post by HG » 12 Sep 2004 04:43

As a great wise man once said:

You don't stop playing because you grow old,
You grow old because you stop playing.

That is what I think the only rule about playing footbag into your later ages is.

millenniumtree · Post by **millenniumtree** » 12 Sep 2004 07:52

I'm going on 25 and I just started 3 months ago. I think my years of inactivity have caused me problems, both knee problems and serious muscle soreness, which leads me to take 2 days off occasionally. I sure wish I could have started when I was 14 like Henry... I would be amazing right now if I did, and in amazing shape.

I agree with Henry's philosophy. I'm 24, but I still feel like I'm 7-10 years younger... It's funny, when I was young, I liked hanging out with older kids, and now, a lot of my friends are in high school, or at least 4 years younger than me. :P

A race car that sits idle for 20 years is worthless, it rusts, it seizes, and it dies.
Put some miles on it every so often, and it'll run forever.

Juana · Post by **Juana** » 12 Sep 2004 17:07

excellent post Executioner Irish! Well worth the read -- I'm glad you commented. Let me meditate on some of that for a bit.

innersmile · Post by **innersmile** » 13 Sep 2004 00:52

mmm, 40 is a whole lot closer to me than to some of you guys, although 15 years can hold plenty of surprises.

I think that if you train correctly, there should be no problem with injuries etc when you hit 40 but footbag is a physically demanding sport. If you stretch and take care of you than there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to do all the things you love. Other than big moves, technique should improve with age.

My Sifu (teacher) has taught me that training is a life long jorney. Why should you be better at 25 than at 40 or 60 esp since you've had another 15 / 35 years to work on stuff? His theory is that you should reach your peak the day you die. I train for when I'm 60 now, so hopefully by then I would have got some stuff right.

I'm in no rush to get better at footbag and if I still dig kicking at 40, hey, guess what? I'll still be kicking. If not, I won't...

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 13 Sep 2004 23:05

YEAH. I'm stoked Peter used the word vocabulary because I think thats a words I turned him onto during our conversations about jazz/footbag/life. i have studied Peter Irish videos since I was first into this game 2 and a half years ago and believe me, at 34 he is at the top of his game!!
Its all about knowing your game and accepting the fact that just because some 16 year old can hit fury doesn't mean you have to. I can hit 20 genuine and 30 guitless on comand and STILL have yet to hit 6 add. And it doesn't bother me if it takes me another 5 years to hit one because I'll still be in the game at 40. As a wise RED man has said, some stars shine bright for a short time and some flicker for years and years. I prefer to flicker.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 14 Sep 2004 05:25

Hmm that's interesting Nate. I think I'd definitly rather be a bright star and go out after a few years personally but I think you made some excellent points.

Of course that's assuming you can't be a bright star and last a long time - which is what I really hope to do

But I think the really imporant point you've made is to know your limits and your game. I definlty play for myself and not for other people (since 99% of the time nobody is watching me these days anyway

) - and I really think that if you do that you'll never give the game up and I can see myself still playing in forty years time - of course by that stage I will have completey destroyed all my joints but that doesn't particularly worry me!

Briefly the other important thing which is completely off topic - it is very important to warm up before stretching - you can risk serious injuries by stretching before warming up and you will get very little benifit from the stretching. Stretching is also very important because it helps you to mentally focus. It's possible that your game will improve from stretching, not because of the stretching but because of the routine involved with it. Almost all eliet athletes have routines before they compete and train - the only ones I can think of that don't do not play professional sport or sport where they have coaches and sports psychologists etc. around them - people who play extreme sports and sports like footbag.

sorry for the hijack!

richardabshire · Post by **richardabshire** » 14 Sep 2004 08:54

I have heard some people say that stretching will not not help your game. I guess a child would say something like that. Don't worry kids, as you get older you will find that stretching is the way to go before and after your session. I am 33 and my game is stronger and more serious than ever before. When you have twenty years in and no stretching of any kind, I bet your game will not represent the current level at that time. Everything that Peter Irish said is true. Alot of you have a couple of years in and think that is it. Not true, if you don't do it right, then pain and injury will surely follow. Stay healthy and focused. Hope this helps, Richie

KronoKicker · Post by **KronoKicker** » 14 Sep 2004 09:40

I actually heard of a scientific article stating that stretching does not actually help you in any physical way. I've not seen it myself, and I wouldn't doubt that it is a fake, but I still injure myself regardless if I stretch and warm up a considerable amount or if I just start right in sprinting/shredding. I do stretch now and then, mainly the tendons in my shins. Warming up definitely helps all the muscles in your body, including the most important.. your heart. I will try to find that article later.

richardabshire · Post by **richardabshire** » 14 Sep 2004 10:25

Question. How much research has been done on the subject of advanced footbag freestyle? Next to none except for the research the sport did itself. Now, continue to listen to all those who don't know. This sport is new and all the research has to be produced by people in the sport or close to it. If all of you kids don't want to stretch and maintain your games, fine. When the time comes, you will see the older players not only know more about, we are using those techniques that allow us to play longer than most of you have been alive. Most of the injuries I hear about on this site are from laziness and ignorance. If your 20 and feel like superman, then where the hell is the awesome game. I have seen players come up and go down just as fast because they did not listen to the top players. Be careful and remember one thing, if you don't take this sport seriously, then you might just hurt yourself. Richie

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 14 Sep 2004 10:49

I think people need to be familiar with their bodies, and not confuse it with someone elses body.

I am a warmup person, and not a stretcher. I swam competitively for 6 years before enjoying a 5 year span as a distance runner before starting to play footbag 10 years ago. If anything, I find I injure myself easier when stretched. I found that the increased injury potential out weighed the benefits of stretching for me. The main benefits I got from stretching were better bloodflow, more flexibility, and increased breathing efficiency. The main draw backs from stretching were slower muscle response, less strength to prevent undesired motions, and higher frequency of injuries and joint pains.

I agree with the guy who said the routine is more important than the stretching. I'm much better when I am in an environment where I can go through my warmup routine and not be interfered with by other players.

I like taking seriously long slow warmups, not some quick easy run, and then start to play. I would walk 1-2 and then jog 3-4 miles before a long race, I would swim 6-8000 yds before a swim meet, and I would idealy get to spend 45 minutes-1hour warming up by myself before shredding. It's probably about the same amount of time stretchers spend doing their thing, and serves about the same purpose. I'm loosening my body up and getting the range of motion I want out of myself, while increasing blood flow to the muscles I plan to push later on. After I have done my warmup, most of the inequalities in my body have evened out, and I can choose to stretch lightly or not at this point.

I'll be applying for my over 30 membership card soon, and I put 127 miles on my bike this past weekend, held three shred sessions, and hiked about 10 miles. I don't see pain driving me out of footbag before I turn fourty. I'm not in pain before or after my activities, and I can be active 5-6 days a week. YMMV.

--Tsiangkun

Sports Med. 2004;34(7):443-9. Related Articles, Links

Stretching and injury prevention: an obscure relationship.

Witvrouw E, Mahieu N, Danneels L, McNair P.

Department of Rehabilitation Sciences and Physical Therapy, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Ghent University, Belgium.
It is generally accepted that increasing the flexibility of a muscle-tendon unit promotes better performances and decreases the number of injuries. Stretching exercises are regularly included in warm-up and cooling-down exercises; however, contradictory findings have been reported in the literature. Several authors have suggested that stretching has a beneficial effect on injury prevention. In contrast, clinical evidence suggesting that stretching before exercise does not prevent injuries has also been reported. Apparently, no scientifically based prescription for stretching exercises exists and no conclusive statements can be made about the relationship of stretching and athletic injuries.

Stretching recommendations are clouded by misconceptions and conflicting research reports. We believe that part of these contradictions can be explained by considering the type of sports activity in which an individual is participating.

Sports involving bouncing and jumping activities with a high intensity of stretch-shortening cycles (SSCs) require a muscle-tendon unit that is compliant enough to store and release the high amount of elastic energy that benefits performance in such sports. If the participants of these sports have an insufficient compliant muscle-tendon unit, the demands in energy absorption and release may rapidly exceed the capacity of the muscle-tendon unit.

Recent studies have shown that stretching programmes can significantly influence the viscosity of the tendon and make it significantly more compliant, and when a sport demands SSCs of high intensity, stretching may be important for injury prevention.This conjecture is in agreement with the available scientific clinical evidence from these types of sports activities.

In contrast, when the type of sports activity contains low-intensity, or limited SSCs (e.g. jogging, cycling and swimming) there is no need for a very compliant muscle-tendon unit since most of its power generation is a consequence of active (contractile) muscle work that needs to be directly transferred (by the tendon) to the articular system to generate motion. Therefore, stretching (and thus making the tendon more compliant) may not be advantageous. This conjecture is supported by the literature, where strong evidence exists that stretching has no beneficial effect on injury prevention in these sports.

According to the literature, stretching may prevent injury, or it may not. I look at footbag as very similar to running in place, and the motions are the same as the sports I've done in the past, running, swimming, and biking. Maybe this is why I don't get any benefit from stretching before hand, I see shred as a collection of motions and muscles I used in other activities, and not some wildly new thing. Further more, the activities I have done all my life were sports which seem to not require a pre activity stretch. Perhaps people who think of shred as bouncing around a ball and jumping get benefits from stretching because they see the game in a fundamentally different way than I.

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 15 Sep 2004 18:51

ShredPirate wrote:well i just got back into judo, and i believe that if i continue to use judo as a cross-trainer (and vice-versa), i'll be much better off in the long run. i'll have well developed muscles which will take all the landing impact for you, instead of your ligaments and bones. and muscle is the fastest to heal out of the three. i think vasek has a style that emphasizes using the muscle of his legs to prevent pain in the future.

How do you train your muscles to take the landing impact for you?

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 15 Sep 2004 21:42

i think the muscles and landing thing perhaps helps like with landing on your toes more, staying balanced in the air and on contact with the ground, so that your joints dont move in too much of an unnatural way.

I find stretching to be of most benefit AFTER a session, and i dont think this could really be disputed could it? It helps prevent or reduce lactic acid buildup in your legs which is the cause of pain and stiffness in your muscles the morning after hard exercise. If i dont stretch after shred, my legs are really sore the day after; if i do stretch, they dont hurt (anywhere near as much)

But i do notice that pre-shred stretching can make me feel not quite so strong and superfast as i felt when i decided to have a session. However i always stretch to get the blood flowing and to loosen up, otherwise i feel kind of jittery and not in touch with my legs

maybe its all related to personal preference, body type etc?

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 15 Sep 2004 22:15

muscle kinda acts like a cushion when it comes to landing hard. you cant really do anything to force them to work, they just kinda do already.