The Draft

blackcrown · Post by **blackcrown** » 22 Sep 2004 13:14

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... &printer=1

Eric

zachatree · Post by **zachatree** » 22 Sep 2004 13:28

umm jeremy, your idea is great and all and I support you all the way... but I'll see you in jail...

If the draft comes once I'm 18... then I guess I shall go fight for my country, and if I die... I'll die with a footbag in my pocket.

Frenzal · Post by **Frenzal** » 22 Sep 2004 15:10

The draft is slavery.

Jeremy, you could always hop over the ditch, New Zealand's surely better than jail for the duration.

And Zach... Man, how could you choose to either die or kill someone rather than spend some time in the clink?

lightningbolt · Post by **lightningbolt** » 22 Sep 2004 16:24

I got cfour words for you jeremy when your in jail: Don't drop the soap

zachatree · Post by **zachatree** » 22 Sep 2004 16:57

I'd kill some one for my country with honor. Some one has to do it. Read a history book. We would not be Amarica if it wasn't for are soilders who fought and died for are freedom for us, I'm willing to die for you. Wish you could say the same.

zachatree · Post by **zachatree** » 22 Sep 2004 17:01

NO EDIT: sorry didnt see Frenzal you are from New Zealand... if there was one place I could wish to Poof off to... it is your beautiful green New Zealand country side

I guess you don't understand what I mean if you dont live in America... that sound wrong for some reason¿ Maybe that's not what I mean. I just mean that I would fight to keep every one in peace, war is not what I want, war is not me, killing is not me. But if some one threatens my sweet red white and blue, I will attack with all that I got. For my future, for my wifes, sons, and his sons future.

lightningbolt · Post by **lightningbolt** » 22 Sep 2004 17:24

Zach: Do you have US citzenship? Because if you don't, they can't shipyou off.

zachatree · Post by **zachatree** » 22 Sep 2004 17:26

Yes i was born in PA. My parents had me in the States on purpose.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 22 Sep 2004 17:43

Well I'm a pacifist and I never believe that violence can solve a problem.

I wonder if you have read a history book Zachary. Which conflicts are you talking about where US soldiers fought and died to keep you safe? More importantly - how do you know that a non violent action wouldn't have worked just as well if not better?

I guess the obvious conflict you are thinking of is World War 2 - however I think if you read a history book, you'll see that most historians see World War 2 as a continuation of World War 1 and brought about by that conflict and the injustices that were forced upon the "defeated" nations. I guess you could say that the troops during WW2 were fighting to protect your nation although you could also say that the reason they had to fight was because of the politics of the countries that "won" WW1 - that's to say that the US, The UK, France etc. were probably the main culprits of starting WW2 in the way they dealt with WW1 - not Germany and the Japan - although they can also be blamed for choosing to use violence in reaction to the injustices they felt.

My point is - that war and most wars are not being fought in self defence unless you call hitting someone with a bottle and then fighting back when they get pissed off and try and beat you up self defence.

And what if you were drafted to fight in a war that wasn't about "the red white and blue" being threatened - such as Iraq - if you were drafted to go fight in Iraq where the outcome will not effect your freedoms at all and the only benefit you will see is cheaper petrol prices for the cost of the lives lost and the international condemnation.

ville · Post by **ville** » 22 Sep 2004 21:18

You're absolutely right Jeremy, There hasn't been a war in the past 100 years where USA has been threathened. I feel sorry for you americans who are forced to kill people for reasons not related to your home countries inpendency and security. In Finland every male over 18 has to choose between service in the Finnish Defensive Force (6-12 months) or civil service (13 months). I chose the army, but only because it's purpose is to defend our country, so I know I will be fighting for our indepence if I ever will be fighting.

Good luck and lets hope there won't be a draft for you.

sandman420 · Post by **sandman420** » 23 Sep 2004 23:40

your damn right man.

see i wouldnt NOT have any problem at all being drafted to fend off commy invaders or anything that actually had to do with defending this wonderful nation. What I DO have a problem with is being fradted off to die so some rich fuck face devil man can become even richer.

max · Post by **max** » 24 Sep 2004 00:08

Zach: since WWII, the US has bombed 24 countries out of those how many "posed a threat to your freedoms"?

lightningbolt · Post by **lightningbolt** » 24 Sep 2004 01:48

max wrote:Zach: since WWII, the US has bombed 24 countries out of those how many "posed a threat to your freedoms"?

Damn! I didn't know it was that many....

I would fight if I belived in the cause. I sure as hell not going to die just for rich men and oil. There can be a gas shortge for all I care. People can stop driving their damn SUVS!

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 24 Sep 2004 18:23

I'm not 18 so I don't have to worry about the draft yet, but if I did get drafted, are you aloud to refuse on religous reasons. sSuch as my religion doesn't let me kill people, and if you put me on the front line I will not fire at the opposing troops... I might be ok with being a medic or something like that though, but that's still iffy.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 25 Sep 2004 11:25

Does anyone remember who started all this "we need the draft again" talk in the first place?

I remember hearing 6 or 12 months ago from a race-baiting member of the black congressional caucus(Rangel, I think).

He said that to many minorities were dying in the war, so we needed a draft to make sure more whites got killed instead(or something like this).

Apparently, Rangel thinks the way to have less minorities in the service, is to FORCE minorities into the service.

Normally race-baiting bullshit like this goes down the toliet, like it should.

BUT, later in the report, several unnamed republicans grumbled support.

At that moment , I knew that Bush would get credit for forwarding the idea, and implementing it.

Spineless republican: "Well, I don't want to look like a racist, so maybe I'll agree with him on the draft."

This is translated to the rest of the world:

BUSH WANTS DRAFT!

-n

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 25 Sep 2004 11:37

Jeremy said:

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(....)More importantly - how do you know that a non violent action wouldn't have worked just as well if not better?

-----------------------------------------

Perhaps, but when someone comes along and asks you to get into a boxcar, in the interests of "peace", will you get in?

Or maybe a better question: When they(whomever they are), are loading up your friends and family into a boxcar, will you still be a pacifist?

Is nothing worth fighting for?

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I don't think you guys in Aussie have to worry about a draft. You have a vocal anti-war movement there.

If the war is that unpopular there, your current president will be defeated, AFTER a Madrid-type attack occurs on your soil. Spain was the example, so that's what you can expect.

That event revealed how a relatively small attack can shift the balance of power in a nation.

-n

Frenzal · Post by **Frenzal** » 25 Sep 2004 18:28

Ok, I know what you're trying to say but Spain is an awful example and i'm sick of hearing it. You give the terrorists too much credit. Opinion polls clearly showed Spains populace strongly opposed to the war long before the bombings. Also, long before the bombings, Spains ruling government was rapidly loosing ground on topics like the economy and something to do with the EU. The Madrid bombings didn't change the outcome.
My fingers are tightly crossed in the hope that Aussie isn't the target of a terrorist attack. I also hope that even if such a tradgedy were to occur Australians would vote Labour anyway.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 Sep 2004 16:25

I think you know absolutely nothing about Australian politics Nathen.

We do not have a President - we are part of the British Empire - so the Queen is our head of state. We did have a referendum a few years ago to become a republic but people are too Americanized to be able to understand what the question was. They think that a president has lots of power - when in reality in most democracies the president is just a figure head. At the moment the governor general is chosen by the prime minister and nobody else (except the Queen of England) have any say in the matter. The proposal for becoming a republic was basically to replace the GG with a position almost exactly the same but with all of parliament being able to have a say in who is GG. The referendum was defeated because people thought that there should be an election for the position. Spending over a $ billion to elect somebody who doesn't really do anything (and isn't supposed to) is ridiculous in my opinion. I think the majority of people want Australia to be a republic but want a system like the US system because the US is cool

Most political experts that I've read think that the US system is fucked and that there are lots of much better systems of government around the world. I think Ireland has a really good system, as does NZ, Switzerland, Australia and maybe Canada - but I could be wrong about some of those.

Regarding the war, while a huge portion of the population is opposed to the war, very few are prepared to do anything about it. Both major parties originally supported the war and to be honest - most of the population doesn't really care. I think a terrorist attack on Australian soil would definitely make it an issue - either giving more support for the war or pulling out. I think nobody over the age of 22 in Australia will be voting in the election based on staying in Iraq or not. If an attack does occur it will make people realise that we are involved in a war and we have to expect causalities if we are to stay in the war. At the moment the war hardly has any kind of effect on anybody - there are only around 1300 Australians in Iraq (800 soldiers and 500 civs) and Iraq is a long way away. However based on the public reaction to the Bali bombings a few years ago (where 88 Australians were killed) - I tend to think the majority of Australian citizens - who are very politically apathetic and have a fairly small view of world politics - would have a stronger desire for blood then to "show weakness" and pull out. I hope that is not the case because I'd hate to see more people getting killed because people here were killed. Lately Australia has become fairly nationalistic and I think many people would care about Australian lives more than overseas lives - definitely I attribute this to large scale Americanization of Australian culture, as well as the strong racist policies of our government in recent years.

Australia has had the draft a number of times in the past and it is fairly easy to imagine it happening again. Also our closest neighbor is the biggest Muslim country in the world with a population of around 220 million people and many people see this has a huge threat to security. Certainly Indonesia and most of south East Asia has become increasingly hostile towards Australia due to the arrogant attitude of our current leaders who are often saying how they'd make attacks against terrorists in other countries and that other countries aren't doing enough to stop terrorism etc.

Like the US, Australia gives our aid to support causes that are in our best interests rather than aid aimed at helping people. Many people in the neighboring countries are very pissed off at this. For example we give Papua New Guinea around $250 million a year - and our government is often very vocal about telling everyone how generous they are. However around $150 million of that money actually goes to Australian companies so that they can continue to exploit the workers and pay them the lowest wages possible with no rights at all. Another $40 million is completely unaccounted for and the PNG government gets the remaining $60 million to spend on whatever they want.

America has no threats of invasion - so it will be much harder to convince people that a draft is a good idea when you're sending off people to fight in countries in the other side of the world with no immediate impact in the US (positive or negative) in relation to the outcome of the war. Australia is a rich imperialist western nation next to a number of very poor, very over crowded Islamite countries who should been feeling very threatened by Australia at the moment.

I tend to think a draft in Australia is a much more likely to occur than one in the US.

hacksterbator · Post by **hacksterbator** » 26 Sep 2004 18:09

if there's ever a draft in canada, i have a canoe and some friends in sweden i haven't seen in a long time.

seriously though, there are things worth fighting for, and should there be a war on canadian soil and i am in immediate danger of being persecuted for my beliefs or having my freedom taken away, i'll be on the front line.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 30 Sep 2004 11:05

Yes, I know little about the Australian political model.

Perhaps your leaders unpopularity is vast.

I thought the polls in Spain had the incumbent winning before the attacks. But I could be mistaken.

And to be totally honest, I don't think many nations should have participated by sending troops in these conflicts anyway.

Not to denigrate the quality of the troops of these nations, but other nations should support in secret.

Sending piecemeal troops just allows jihadists to justify a country being a target. I know Aussie. sent more than piecemeal troops.

Jeremy is wrong about us not being invaded. We are invaded everyday by thousands. ANYONE can just walk in whenever they want. We have a military that is unable to fight this.

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When and where it would be most advantageous for "enemies" to strike before an election is complex.

If I was betting, I would bet that there will be NO terrorist strike in the U.S. before the election.

And Australia also will not be attacked, they(terrorists) should wait and see who wins, angering the public with a mass casuality attack would only be appropriate if the public would blame your leader for it.

-n