Input from Men and Women Needed - read please!

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 01 Oct 2004 21:07

My girlfriend and I had a lively discussion this evening. She told me that when I said any of the following statements:
1) "you made a stupid decision"
2) "you made a bad decision"
3) "you made a wrong decision"
that she interpreted it as a personal character assault. I believe that I can judge the decision separately from the person, but she feels that the above statements are inherently accusing and judging the person. We would both like to know what you think.

Men and women please respond, but please address the topic.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 01 Oct 2004 21:20

No one's perfect, by telling someone they made a bad decision isnt an attack on their character, everyone makes mistakes. Ask her if she thinks she's ever made a bad decision in her opinion? Obviously she has, is that an attack on herself? No, people make mistakes, and just because you state a decision someone makes as bad or negative doesnt mean it actually is it just means under the current circumstances the decision they made doesn't seem right to you.

By going by your girlfriends logic good people makes good decisions 24/7 and thats just not right.

That's a silly comment on your girlfriends part imo.

what if she stays up too late and regrets it the next day cuz she's tired? She made a wrong decision, if someone says, "jee that wasnt the right decision, you should have gone to bed earlier" is that a direct attack on the person? hells no.

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 01 Oct 2004 21:24

EDITED: Sry i read ur post wrong jeremy. I for some reason thought u said insult instead of attack. Let me try this again.

If I say a certain movie is bad. People would look at it as an attack on the movie...because it is. If I say a person is stupid, that is an attack on them. They are my opinions, but they are still attacks.

To fix the problem, dswap "you made" with "that was."

1) "you made a stupid decision"

1) "that was a stupid decision"

Now ur attacking the decision and not the decision maker.

mc · Post by mc » 01 Oct 2004 22:08

if your girlfriend thinks that acknowledgement of flaw is a personal attack on her character, then that, to me, makes her more susceptible to the acknowledgement of flaw, if you know what I mean. catch-22! do your discussions with her about this turn into viscious cycles

?

humans are flawed creatures, so everyone is going to have things wrong with them, and they come up sometimes. maybe your girlfriend takes personally the fact that you feel that it's within the realm of propriety to bring it up, which, to some people, could be seen as high and mighty. their (her?) feeling might be that you, as a somewhat equally flawed being, have no place mentioning their flaws, because you're no better.

I'm not saying that's the case, but if it is, it would seem like she's being kinda defensive. Would she rather you disrespected her by holding back your true feelings and misleading her about them? does she think you should never disagree with her? I don't think I understand her point of view. your girlfriend should post here.

Whatsfootbag? · Post by **Whatsfootbag?** » 02 Oct 2004 07:51

usually when i say somtehing like that,ill say it in a sugar coated form if i dont know the person well,but if im good friends,ill let em have it cuase they know i mean it in a good way

but yea usually ill be like"i feel" or "i think" "that the decision you made was stupid" "bad" "not right" "inappropriate" etc..usually that doesnt attack the "character" and most people dont take it too personally unless it's a personal issue

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 02 Oct 2004 09:32

try . . .
I understand why you made the decision you did, but if I was in your shoes I probably would have given more weight to factor X, and decided foo.

or
Yes Dear. I'm sorry.

MegaFighter_X · Post by **MegaFighter_X** » 02 Oct 2004 10:09

Yes dear... heh...

Depending on the context of what you say, it could be viewed both ways. Yes, it is an attack on her, as the decision didn't make itself. However, it's attacking her decision moreso than her. I can see how your girlfriend might take it as a personal assault, but I would find little merit putting any gold into the "you" part. Especially since you are her boyfriend, it should not be viewed as a peronal assault.

Also, there is the tone of what's said to consider. Here's a couple of ways I can see it being heard:
-"y'made a bad choice."
-"y'know, ya made a stupid decision."
-"YOU made a horrible decision."

The first two are pretty informal. THe last one is a direct assault on someone's character. It's all in how you say it.

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 02 Oct 2004 10:48

i think there is a difference between these 2 sentences:

you made a bad decision

and

that was a bad decision

the main difference would be having the word "you" in the same sentence as "bad decision". which doesn't imply that it's a personal attack, but it could easily be taken the wrong way.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 02 Oct 2004 11:09

AHA !

In the future, split the attack from the person like so.

do YOU know what I think. THAT was a dumb decision. Voilla . . . problem solved.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 02 Oct 2004 12:21

Whatsfootbag? wrote:but yea usually ill be like"i feel" or "i think" "that the decision you made was stupid" "bad" "not right" "inappropriate" etc..usually that doesnt attack the "character" and most people dont take it too personally unless it's a personal issue

This is what I would do, too.
I also wouldn't tell my girlfriend that she made a "stupid" decision. Maybe not even a "bad" or "wrong" decision -- that's really judgemental in my opinion. To say that somebody is WRONG is quite a strong statement -- especially if it is the person you are in love with.

millenniumtree · Post by **millenniumtree** » 02 Oct 2004 12:49

There are less accusatory ways to say just about everything.

1) "you made a stupid decision"

Ok, first of all, don't use the word stupid. That will get you in trouble. Imagine yourself speaking to some head of government. Call them stupid, and they'll rain fire down on your home and family. :P (women can sometimes be like that too.) heehee

2) "you made a bad decision"

You're using the word you, which directly ties the decision to the person. In a way, this could be interpreted as "You are bad, and so are your decisions!"

3) "you made a wrong decision"

Same as above, with a "You are wrong!!" attitude.

Here are some better options:

You've made better decisions than that.
(puts a positive spin on it, comparing to other good decisions)
((although, now that I think about it, this sounds a bit condescending)

That decision might cause you some problems in the future.
(states that the decision was bad, and may cause trouble, but doesn't accuse the person of being bad or wrong)

Depending on what the decision is, you could demonize the object, rather than the person.

"Smoking isn't the best choice for you."
"I don't think that car is worth what you paid for it."
"Orange may not be the best color with those shoes."

Whatever you do, don't start the sentance with the word "you".

Maybe none of this is helpful... I'm still looking for ways to speak to my wife without getting hit too, so don't feel bad. ;)

sPinko-Mania · Post by **sPinko-Mania** » 02 Oct 2004 18:31

"You made a bad decision" is neccessarily judgemental.

The question is: can you seperate a persons actions from their character, and I think that you can't. It's sort of the line some Christains use - hate the sin, not the sinner. It's sort of bullshit I think, I see where people are coming from if someone just makes an uncharacteristic move then you say that. But what makes a person's character? What they do.

So if you're critical of what they do, you're critical of them, because what more is a person than what they say and do? What other possible yardstick of persons character is there other than what decisions they make?

Of course saying 'you bad a bad decision' is different from 'you make bad decisions' - it's just recognising that a single decision was made which was wrong. The way it's phrased is objective though, it's not that you think it was wrong, it was wrong. And sometimes we all just need to remember the words of the dude - 'Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion man'.

canadian girl · Post by **canadian girl** » 02 Oct 2004 20:37

I think the issue with her is that she probably understands what you are saying, and she most likely values your opinion very much, but she probably would just want you to express it in a more sympathetic and understanding, loving way.

I know I would feel hurt if my boyfriend talked to me like that too (not that you were trying to judge her character, or anything and I'm sure she knows that too), just because there is a difference between the way a girlfriend wants to be talked to, compared to your best buddy, you know?

Besides, they always say that it is more productive and less harsh to hear critisism when it is specifically the action that is being critisized, not the person. For example: "You always say things like that, and it makes me angry!!!" versus "I feel very angry when you say...." (focusing on how you feel, rather than how it is the other person's fault for making you feel that way). Sort-of the same thing.

SlashC · Post by **SlashC** » 02 Oct 2004 21:32

The ladies are ALWAYS right. 3+2=4. I have no pants (it's easier that way).

Atom · Post by **Atom** » 03 Oct 2004 07:07

everyone here has basically covered what advice I would offer...the only thing I can point out is that there has to be a mutual understanding between you and your gf, that dictates that you both know and trust that each of you are not attacking each other with what you say, regardless of how badly a statement may sound.

In my personal experience with my gf, we trust each other enough to never jump the gun on such things. perhaps your gf's reaction to any of the previous statements( the good ones and the bad ones) is to respond calmly, and question the intentions of such a statement. As you may have just used the wrong words at that moment.

P.S. if someone does get emotional over something that may seem trivial to you(refering to a couple) then maybe some time to think about it would help...and a good hug clears the mind quite well.

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 03 Oct 2004 18:04

Jeremy:
I am going to address #1 mostly, because that is the one I can most likely see myself getting upset by: You can easily judge the decision separately from the person. No doubt. But please understand that anytime someone is discussing something that you did wrong or poorly, you are bound to feel attacked. That is why “stupid” or “dumb” should be avoided. Yes, if I look literally at what you said to her, I see what you meant. But in that situation, what you mean isn’t always what comes across.

And of course, it always depends on the context of the conversation. I’m trying to imagine how you might have said “you made a stupid decision.” I see two basic possibilities: 1.) You’re angry/disapproving, 2.) You’re trying to talk with her about something that she feels bad about without lying or saying she did nothing wrong. Either way, the use of the word “stupid” will be taken the wrong way. It might be confusing to people, especially guys, but there are some things that people are going to respond poorly to.

And saying “you did a bad thing” is a judgment. You are judging her act, and it probably FEELS to her like you think that her motive must have been due to bad intentions as well, even if we know that you don’t feel that way.

Seath wrote: what if she stays up too late and regrets it the next day cuz she's tired? She made a wrong decision, if someone says, "jee that wasnt the right decision, you should have gone to bed earlier" is that a direct attack on the person? hells no

Okay, saying “jee that wasn’t the right decision” sounds a lot nicer than “you did something bad/wrong/stupid.” If someone said “well that was stupid” to me after having a long night and a bad day because of it, I would be so upset.

Can you see how the words that you use make a difference? I know it sounds picky, and it IS. But when you’re having a discussion with someone and you’re emotionally exposed something the wrong words hurt more and make things worse. There are better ways to point out mistakes than stupid/bad/wrong.

I think that your g/f was probably so upset about it because of the way you said it, not that you were expressing concern for her actions.

ShredPirate wrote:i think there is a difference between these 2 sentences:
you made a bad decision
and
that was a bad decision
the main difference would be having the word "you" in the same sentence as "bad decision". which doesn't imply that it's a personal attack, but it could easily be taken the wrong way.

Well said.

That was my 2nd post, so I decided to go crazy and say everything I felt like saying. Sorry, it was probably pretty redundant.

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 03 Oct 2004 20:03

to clear the air:
I didnt say it to HER. I said it about some one else, to which she took offense, saying that SHE would interpret those words as a personal attack IF I were to ever say them to her.

thanks a lot for stating what you truly believe. It is helping us (esp. me) to understand the connection between language and thought.

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 03 Oct 2004 20:36

"I" am the connection between language and thought...