Abortion

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BainbridgeShred
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

I don't know if it would be very accurate to believe statistics that are 17 years old although when it's broken down like the way those are I guess it sounds about right. So I think you could probably assume from those results that 17 years ago the majority of people having abortions were either very young or couldn't afford a baby - probably a combination of both in many circumstances. In fact I would use those statistics to say that 17 years ago up to 76% of abortions occured because the person was either very young or couldn't afford to raise a child. (obviously the actual statistic would be lower than this amount but 76% of responces could be for these reasons). I also don't really trust statistics posted on propaganda websites. Statistics are very very easy to manipulate - not just by the wording of questions in surveys (which makes a significant difference) but in the way the results are presented. I think in the case of opinion surveys you need to see exactly what the questions were, what the sample space was, where they lived and the social factors of those locations.
You're right on most points. I hadn't realized that it was outdated, I had actualyl just read the statistic in a book somewhere and googled "Abortion 93%" and that came up. Whether or not the question was rigged is all speculation, so you really shouldn't be saying anything in regards to that. But really Jerememy, do you truely believe that more than 30% of women getting abortions are doing it because they can't financially support the child? It seems far fetched to me.
Obviously I'm talking about a person in the normal accept definition of the word "person" and not the definition used by people pushing particular views. I am sure you knew that.
Of course I knew what you were talking about, but I played dumb to make a point. That point was that their are more people than just the mother involved in an abortion (Specifically, but not restricted to, the father and the unborn child), and thus it is not a womans right issue entriely.
Welfare pays for abortions now? I'd really like to see a reliable (unlike Dan's NRLC source) source on that. Yes, there are programs set up through Planned Parenthood (and possibly other providers but I'm not sure about that) to help women who have a low or no income. But you have to apply and qualify for that to make sure it is not abused.
Wow, thanks for the low blow. I understand that abortion can be a pretty touchy issue (Especially for those with double XX chromosomes, because your equality is constantly under assault, right?), but really, you're comment was just plain rude and uncalled for. Really, what reason did you have to say it? I'd like to hear one.

Anways, yes, in some cases tax money is diverted to pay for abortion.

If MEN could get pregnant, this whole abortion thing wouldn't even be an issue. Plan B would be available from every drive through restaurant, coffee house, and pharmacy. Men wouldn't let something like a one night mistake take over the rest of our lives, and yet that is the position the male dominated legislature wants for our women.
You're probably right, if men could get pregnant abortion would definetly be legal, but does that make it right? I really don't understand what you're trying to get at here.
This IS a women's rights issue. 100% of the people having abortions are women. Why is there a resistence to support our women in this country and provide effective birth controll, without having to deal with prescriptions and activist pharacists ?
We're talking about abortion here, not birth control, so once again I don't know what you're trying to get at. Also, explain to me how it's a womens rights issue? I understand how it is a womens rights issue in the literal sense, as in it is currently a womens "right" to have an abortion, but as far as the connotations of a "womens rights issue" go, I don't think this is one. Keep in mind their are three people involved here (Two living, one with the potential to live), and not just the woman.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "...resistence to support our women"? If you're talking about resistence to supporting women when it comes to ending the life on a unborn baby, well I can and have told you why I'm "resisting" this.


Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject:

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If MEN could get pregnant, this whole abortion thing wouldn't even be an issue. Plan B would be available from every drive through restaurant, coffee house, and pharmacy. Men wouldn't let something like a one night mistake take over the rest of our lives, and yet that is the position the male dominated legislature wants for our women.

This IS a women's rights issue. 100% of the people having abortions are women. Why is there a resistence to support our women in this country and provide effective birth controll, without having to deal with prescriptions and activist pharacists ?
It is also a descrimination issue. Why are we making laws that specifically target one sex ? That in and of itself shows that this is a controll issue. It is not a law to protect or serve the people, but rather serves to contoll one segment of the population.
It's a descrimination issue because only women can have babies... If you're mad about this form fo discrimination, take it up with God... Or maybe in your case Mother Nature :o

It's not a shame that abortion is legal, it's a shame that we can't do better for our women. They deserve better options than having an abortion.
Agreed 100%. Alice Paul, the feminist author, even went as far as to say "Abortion is the ultimat exploitation of women".
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Tsiangkun
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Post by Tsiangkun »

It's a descrimination issue because only women can have babies... If you're mad about this form fo discrimination, take it up with God... Or maybe in your case Mother Nature

NO. You completely missed the point. Go back and evaluate the role of the government. Examine laws applied to abortion. Go back and evaluate the role of the government. Examine laws applied to abortion. Go back and evaluate the role of the government.


Imagine a law saying brown haired individuals are no longer able to recieve cancer treatments. Now imagine that law codified as a constitutional ammendment.

Same thing as the abortion laws.

Laws that pertain only to a subset of the population are, by definition, descriminatory. These laws have no business in the constitution for a country.
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

Laws that pertain only to a subset of the population are, by definition, descriminatory.
Say only Asian people commited robberies. There would still be a law saying "You can't rob people". Descriminatory or not.


Really though, I don't even know if I just responded to the issue your bringing up. You're making zero sense to me.
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BainbridgeShred
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

Imagine a law saying brown haired individuals are no longer able to recieve cancer treatments. Now imagine that law codified as a constitutional ammendment.
Also, people of any color hair can get cancer, only female can get abortions... What the hell are you talking about?
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Tsiangkun
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Post by Tsiangkun »

*WACK*
*WACK*
*WACK*
*WACK*
*WACK*

Okay, now that I've beaten you with the clue stick.

*WACK*
*WACK*

A few more for good measure.

only female can get abortions.
Which is precisely why a law on abortion is not a fair law. It only applies to a subset of the population, based on their DNA. Femal is a genetic trait, just like brown hair.

*WACK*
*WACK*

It is effectively the same as making a law saying brown haired people are not eligible for cancer treatments, or any other genetic marker you care to use. It's a bad law that does not serve or protect the population, and only applies to a subset. It serves solely to enforce the dominance of one party onto another based on some arbitrary criteria.

*WACK*
*WACK*
Go back and evaluate the role of the government. Examine laws applied to abortion. Go back and evaluate the role of the government. Examine laws applied to abortion. Go back and evaluate the role of the government.

*WACK*
The government is not supposed to make moral decisions for the populace.
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Post by Moxie »

BainbridgeShred wrote:
Welfare pays for abortions now? I'd really like to see a reliable (unlike Dan's NRLC source) source on that. Yes, there are programs set up through Planned Parenthood (and possibly other providers but I'm not sure about that) to help women who have a low or no income. But you have to apply and qualify for that to make sure it is not abused.
Wow, thanks for the low blow. I understand that abortion can be a pretty touchy issue (Especially for those with double XX chromosomes, because your equality is constantly under assault, right?), but really, you're comment was just plain rude and uncalled for. Really, what reason did you have to say it? I'd like to hear one.
Aww, I wasn't attacking you. I was attacking your source. The reason? I went through their site. They are very open about being against the Equal Rights Amendment and The Freedom Of Choice Act. Besides the fact that I disagree with almost everything (if not everything) they say on their site, I don't feel that they are a reliable sourse of statistics/facts. Ta da.
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

Actually, you were talking about something totally unrelated to my source, and threw a cheap shot at my. Maybe my source was biased, who knows? I sure don't. Still no reason for you to randomly bring up my name in a negative manner in a random situation.


And Tsiang, if you don't understand how the sex trait and hair color trait are culturally distinct, I don't think you'll ever learn. Step your game up bro.
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Post by jon »

BainbridgeShred wrote: Say only Asian people commited robberies. There would still be a law saying "You can't rob people". Descriminatory or not.
The point being made is that only woman are able to have abortions. Using your example above you must at admit that if only one group was performing the action would not definitely rule out another group possibly doing the action. In your example robbery would be made unlawful because although only one group was currently doing it anyone could.
Because on woman are able to have abortions the laws concerning abortion only directly affect them. Unlike your example above which would apply to the everyone.
Tsiangkun wrote: The government is not supposed to make moral decisions for the populace.
Huh? Where is that written? What about laws concerning marrage, drugs, ect?
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Post by jon »

:p I hardly post in this subform and forgot about the lack of editing. I guess my style of posting and then correcting the post is useless here. I apologize for the errors in my writing above. (I hope it at least gets the point across)
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Post by Jeremy »

there's a significant difference between getting welfare and saving up that money so as to be able to afford an abortion (or any other kind of medical treatment) and being eligable to recieve all medical treatment for free (if you can can't afford the costs).
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

there's a significant difference between getting welfare and saving up that money so as to be able to afford an abortion (or any other kind of medical treatment) and being eligable to recieve all medical treatment for free (if you can can't afford the costs).
Is anybody debating this?

The point being made is that only woman are able to have abortions. Using your example above you must at admit that if only one group was performing the action would not definitely rule out another group possibly doing the action. In your example robbery would be made unlawful because although only one group was currently doing it anyone could. Because on woman are able to have abortions the laws concerning abortion only directly affect them. Unlike your example above which would apply to the everyone.
I must be a fool 'cause I still don't fucking get what's going on. :x :x :? :? :( :(
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Post by jon »

Any one can rob someone one (even if for example only one group did all the robing - see your example) the fact that only one group is robbing doesnt stop other groups in the future from also robbing. So a law about robbing would apply to everyone.

Only woman can get abortions. Men never can, nor (more likely) never will be able to have abortions. Therefore this law does not apply to everyone, only a certain grouping of the population.
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Post by Blackend »

Moxie wrote:Welfare pays for abortions now? I'd really like to see a reliable (unlike Dan's NRLC source) source on that. Yes, there are programs set up through Planned Parenthood (and possibly other providers but I'm not sure about that) to help women who have a low or no income. But you have to apply and qualify for that to make sure it is not abused.
No, no, no. Sorry you misunderstood me, Emily. My brother's ex-fiancee has had three different children to three different fathers and that's where the welfare comes in. She doesn't do a damn thing and welfare pays for it. Thankfully, due to Montana state law, she had to have her tubes tied after the third one because she can't plop kids out for money. That's what I was getting at. Sorry again about the misunderstanding.
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

Any one can rob someone one (even if for example only one group did all the robing - see your example) the fact that only one group is robbing doesnt stop other groups in the future from also robbing. So a law about robbing would apply to everyone.

Only woman can get abortions. Men never can, nor (more likely) never will be able to have abortions. Therefore this law does not apply to everyone, only a certain grouping of the population.
I understand now. I think the confusion came in because I worded my example wrong. I should have said "Only Asians COULD commit robberies", not just that they were the only ones doing it. Thus it was impossible for anyone to else besides Asians to commit a robbery, period.
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Post by Colin »

Oh, thanks for clearing up. Tell me, do you think that your argument becomes more convincing when you explain that your premises are impossible?
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

Lol... This cracks me up. This in combination with the "DO YOU LIKE, LIKE HATE OR LIKE GAY PEOPLE ROFL OMG" thread ruins any respect I had for this forum.

Newf... Let me walk you through this one... In fact... No... You really don't deserve it. I was using an impossible situation to show the senselessness of Tsiang's example. Why did I even tell you that? I should of let you figure it out for yourselves. By giving you guys the answers I'm really only hurting you all.

Whatever... I'm done with modified.
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Post by Moxie »

Blackend wrote:Sorry again about the misunderstanding.
It's no problem. :-)
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Post by Colin »

For the record, I wasn't trying to be antagonistic. If you change your mind about modified and decide to continue the discussion, I'll be happy to reciprocate. As is, I'm not interested in defending myself to a vacuum.
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Post by BainbridgeShred »

Just because you say you weren't trying to be antagonistic, doesn't mean you weren't being antagonistic. That's the problem with a lot of people on modified, you guys are all so politically correct, but do hesitate to slide in a snide remark just to piss someone your argueing with off, and then claim foul on their part when they call you on it. Be a man and realize when you are wrong and don't fall back on lies.
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Post by slapdash21 »

Newf wrote:As is, I'm not interested in defending myself to a vacuum.

i realize we did just debate this, but i wasnt aware we came to the conclusion that saying someone sucks wasnt TOO offensive?? its a more direct route anyway...





:wink:
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