Abortion

jbalexdarkelf · Post by **jbalexdarkelf** » 28 Apr 2005 08:17

I dont know if there is already a ttopic on this, ut what does everyone think about abortoin.

For me im pro life all the way.

Bander87 · Post by **Bander87** » 28 Apr 2005 09:25

Wrong section, and debates on abortion never go anywhere, that why I hate the subject.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 28 Apr 2005 09:34

yeah, seriously. if we've learned anything in the last week, it's that opening a thread with a statement of controversial belief containing no discussion or rationalizations is a sure way to start a flame war.

that being said, has anybody read about the economist who's tied the fall in crime rates over the last twenty years to Roe vs. Wade? It makes a lot of sense if you think it through.

jbalexdarkelf · Post by **jbalexdarkelf** » 28 Apr 2005 12:30

sorry, your probably right, every one will probably be in better shape not replying to this thread.
and they usually never go any where like yall said.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 28 Apr 2005 18:45

Hey if you don't want to discuss a topic - don't. Posts saying a topic shouldn't be discussed are boring and usually unhelpful. The aim of discussions isn't to convert people to your view, it's to understand other peoples views and get a better understanding of your own view. Sometimes there are people who don't understand that and get involved in big flame wars - I'd like to think most of us are more mature than that. I know there have been lots of great mature discussions on this forum in the past and most of them, regardless of the topic, don't degress into flame wars.

Regarding abortion - I fully support a women's right to choose if she want's one or not. I think most of the arguements put up against abortion are ridiculous arguments which always come from people who have never had an abortion and have no idea what it would be like. Neither do I, but because of my obvious ignorance that I will never be able to remove, I think the only people who can make a decision are the people involved. If you are opposed to abortions - don't get one - but don't ruin other peoples lives trying to enforce your own beliefs onto them.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 28 Apr 2005 18:56

That's a good point Jeremy, I was just suggesting that there might have been a better way to start off the discussion - like an outlining of the pertinent facts or the reasons for the opinion. the 'on religion' thread being a good example of how to start a discussion by providing an interesting initial framework.

Anyway, there is really only one argument against abortion, that it is the 'murder' of an innocent baby, and thus morally/ethically wrong. I've never heard anybody argue against abortion from anything but a religious standpoint.

I've been reading a lot of news reports about how several states are trying to crack down on abortions - in one case the florida legislature is trying to prevent a thirteen year old living in state custody (ie, homeless) from getting an abortion. I think it's rediculous to value the life of a fetus over the trauma of forcing a veritable preteen to carry an unwanted child to term.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 28 Apr 2005 19:15

junkyardjew wrote:
Anyway, there is really only one argument against abortion, that it is the 'murder' of an innocent baby, and thus morally/ethically wrong. I've never heard anybody argue against abortion from anything but a religious standpoint.

There are a number of reasons why people argue against abortion apart from religious reasons.

In Australia for example, it's very hard to get an abortion without a really good reason. So if you are a homeless 13 year old - you can definitly get one and the government (ie. the people of Australia) will pay for it. However if you're a 23 year old professional - it's much harder. The reason for this is that some conservative people think that if anybody could get an abortion on demand, people would use abortion as a contraceptive. They'd be less afraid of getting pregant because they could always have an abortion to solve the problem. This kind of logic makes a lot of sense from the point of view of a man or somebody who has never had an abortion and has no plans on having one, but from all accounts it's quite a traumatic experience and not something people would prefer to wearing a condom.

Abortion is obviously a very complex arguement - there are many sub arguements involved. In Australia we have a tax payer funded medical system that pays the majority of the costs of abortions. There's obviously a large movement of people who don't want their money paying for abortions. It's a tough issue because there are lots of things that I don't want my money going to fund - like the war on Iraq and our refugee detention centers - so I sympathise with their point. I'm also happy to have my tax money going to pay for abortions. I am completely in favour of a public funded health system and I think that health system should cover all parts of health care. It would be ridiculous if the health system didn't cover abortions such that people would have to go to private clinics for an abortion but not for anything else. I think it's one those decisions where compromise doesn't really work.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 28 Apr 2005 19:16

[quote"JunkYardJew"]I've never heard anybody argue against abortion from anything but a religious standpoint. [/quote]

well, one example of non-religious is the psychological effect on the mother of the fetus after the abortion. its up for debate how extreme the effect is...Planned Parenthood claims that females that have abortions really dont suffer psychologically while many people argue otherwise. so its certainly open to debate. also it would affect some people more than others, of course. i personally believe that it could be a pretty traumatic event, especially if not properly thought out beforehand.

JunkYardDude wrote:I think it's rediculous to value the life of a fetus over the trauma of forcing a veritable preteen to carry an unwanted child to term.

affect on veritable preteen=shame, embaressment, stress, financial problems
affect on fetus=death

still seems skewed to me.[/u]

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 28 Apr 2005 19:51

I agree with that. The trama upon a woman who goes through with an abortion must be extremely difficult. Which is why i don't think anyone would enter into the procedure lightly. It's the type of trama that only half the population would ever experience, and to legislate anything based on sex is a form of government discrimination. I believe all laws should apply to all people, and disagree with a government writting legislation which only applies to specified subset of the population.

Bander87 · Post by **Bander87** » 28 Apr 2005 21:32

jbalexdarkelf wrote:sorry, your probably right, every one will probably be in better shape not replying to this thread.
and they usually never go any where like yall said.

John, I would like to say that I am sorry and give you my apologies. I had thought that this was the "Anything else" section rather than "Discussion" and I shouldn't have attacked you so quickly. As Jeremy has said, each of us have a unique view that can provide insight. Just wanted to show my public apologies.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 29 Apr 2005 00:36

It was in the wrong section - you were right. I moved the topic to the right section. If you ever think a topic is in the wrong section, pm me or one of the other moderators and if we agree we'll move it for you!!

Peter Bowler wrote:affect on veritable preteen=shame, embaressment, stress, financial problems
affect on fetus=death

still seems skewed to me.

This is the typical kind of arguement against abortion - that you are "killing" a human. Maybe this is true. But let me ask you a question - why is it wrong to kill people? I'm not saying it isn't - I'm a pacifist - I don't believe in killing people. But I have some strong logical arguements for why I believe that. I'd like to know if you have some logical arguements too. Pretend I am saying it's ok to kill people - tell me why that's wrong. Whenever I come across issues like this - I try to ignore my emotions as much as I can. The whole point of emotions are to make you feel differently about something so that you basically have a better chance of breeding or preserving your life. Emotions are trying to cloud your mind. I'm not saying emotions are wrong - just I think you need something stronger than emotions to make ethical decisions - that's what philosophy is all about - using your brain instead of your heart.

max · Post by **max** » 29 Apr 2005 00:47

I agree with that. The trama upon a woman who goes through with an abortion must be extremely difficult. Which is why i don't think anyone would enter into the procedure lightly.

I think the trauma to both the child and mother of bringing up a child when you're still in school / have no job / have no SO to help you bringing the child up is also rather large. Most people want the best for their kids, and attempt to have some kind of financially stable situation and an environment suitable for bringing up a child. I won't even start with the (parent's) maturity issue.

Out of curiosity, how old does a foetus have to be to be considered "killed" following an abortion?

Guest_2 · Post by **Guest_2** » 29 Apr 2005 01:21

My religious beliefs say there are thirty days after conception before it has nefesh (life). The issue lies beyond this though, it's the concept in general-which is not a black or white issue. I, myself am pro-life in the aspect that I am not fond of preventing a fetus from developing into a child. I am fully against partial birth abortions unless the woman's life is in danger-or there are extenuating circumstances. Life, especially a child's, is not to be taken lightly or for granted. Then again, I'm not a woman & it is not all that fly that I'm taking a position on it.

The mental anguish of an abortion for a mother is unfeasible for me or the vast majority of those on modified. It's not like its going to be fun & she doesn't have a supernumerary range of emotions to sort through. If an abortion is being done, it's with reason. That said, what if a 12 yr old girl is raped, becomes pregnant, and is not yet matured physically enough to give birth without dire consequences-possibly her life. In said case, to not allow an abortion would be inhumane. This isn't black or white, and can not be addressed as if it were.

lightningbolt · Post by **lightningbolt** » 29 Apr 2005 01:47

I'm pro choice.

Nevertheless, what I still don't understand if most abortions could be avoided if Emergency Contraception were provided over the counter. Why is there such a fight against it? No "life" is being destroyed because with EC all it is just a clump of cells that is destroyed. It has not implanted into the wall yet, so there is no pregnancy. There is no "life".

People are going to have sex unprotected so I just don't see why we don't do everything we can to prevent an abortion. Therefore, this should never be an issue.

I think abortion ties into the naive abstinence-only sex education program that America and other countries (I don’t really know) insist that works but it doesn’t. A kid are not 100% naïve about this but if we had a real sex ed. course that, actually deals with the issues without tip toeing around them maybe abortion wouldn’t be as common.

Personally, I think abortion should be legal. Whom the fuck is the government to tell me what to do with my body? (<--- don't answer that; this is just kind of rant As far as the emotional stress on the women goes, most women knows what abortion included and didn't just wake up one day and go "Today I think I want to have an abortion because there so much fun." In Alaska, before a woman gets an abortion, she must first wait 24 hours than watch a video about it. I think that is wrong. The government shouldn't push views like that. I don’t know.

About a year ago, I was chilling at a newer friend’s house, whose very reglious we were watching TV and her mom hops in and pops in a video about abortion. It describes in detail what it was and had pictures to go along with it. Then, followed the lecture about how evil abortion was. Bear in mind I was 13 and didn't know really what abortion was let alone have a view on it that she kept pushing for. I'm still pissed at her for that. I have a hard time letting things go. I don't see that friend anymore. After that, we drifted apart. Anyways, I am not naive about what in its. It's gross and disgusting but it's that persons choice. It's their body. Let them do what they want.

My friend works at Planned Parenthood, so I hear this lot….

This probably made no sense. I need to go to bed.

delakong · Post by **delakong** » 29 Apr 2005 06:08

Pro-choice.

I don't think it's right for a government/religious organization/(add your own) to tell people what's right and wrong if it's involving your own body. Abortion is a touchy issue. I want to say the way I feel about it, but it's really hard to put in words. If we were all standing together and could discuss this in person I could elaborate alot more. For some reason my words just don't come across right when read.

peanutbuterboy · Post by **peanutbuterboy** » 29 Apr 2005 18:11

Abortion=bad

To girls: Dont get knocked up if you arent ready to have a kid.
To guys: Dont do the knocking if she/you is not ready to have a kid.

That would solve everything.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 29 Apr 2005 19:24

Abortion=bad

To girls: Dont get knocked up if you arent ready to have a kid.
To guys: Dont do the knocking if she/you is not ready to have a kid.

That would solve everything.

Someone elect this man president, this is the type of simplicity that American people love.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 30 Apr 2005 01:03

BainbridgeShred wrote:
Abortion=bad

To girls: Dont get knocked up if you arent ready to have a kid.
To guys: Dont do the knocking if she/you is not ready to have a kid.

That would solve everything.
Someone elect this man president, this is the type of simplicity that American people love.

Yeah, it's simplistic all right.

Personally, I have a serious gripe that the same people in the US (politically) who oppose abortion and fight tooth and nail to repeal Roe V. Wade are the same people who have absolutely no quams about going into a foreign country, killing thousands of civilians, for a drop of oil and some misguided capitalist conception of freedom, liberty, and fear of terrorism.

lightningbolt · Post by **lightningbolt** » 30 Apr 2005 02:14

Splint wrote: Personally, I have a serious gripe that the same people in the US (politically) who oppose abortion and fight tooth and nail to repeal Roe V. Wade are the same people who have absolutely no quams about going into a foreign country, killing thousands of civilians, for a drop of oil and some misguided capitalist conception of freedom, liberty, and fear of terrorism.

Because abortion kills AMERICAN lives. We don't give a fuck less to thoese iraq terroist scums who live in caves. Damnit, it's there own damn fault that we attacked them. They shouldn't have lived in where there oil. That our damn oil too. We need all that oil to drive our fat asses around in our hummers. If they were normal and lived like us Americans do instead of the freak ways of their culture maybe we wouldn't have attacked them.

This is all said in jest.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 30 Apr 2005 05:12

If the jesting part? Because if that's said in jest it means you're jesting about jesting which means you're serious...

Of course you're absolutely right. I just wanted to add that clearly there is a difference between a foetus - which has done nothing wrong to anybody and an American... I mean an Iraqi!