Talking/sledging in circle comp

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 22 Oct 2006 23:20

Take golf as an example for unsportly conduct. If some competitor were heckling another when he/she is concentrating on his/her swing, you can expect a direct and fatal golf swing back.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was heckling in circle comps and someone symple toe kicked someone's balls into the air.

sidekick · Post by **sidekick** » 23 Oct 2006 08:30

I'd have to say that if someone were to heckle me mid-string I would get pissed off in a competition. Normally in circles it can be fun to say "the" on a clipper stall to make the other person laugh, but someone in a comp deserves the chance to actually do a good string. I'm already nervous enough in those circle comps, and someone who is giving me shit during my run is an asshole for trying to make me do worse. Now, I don't care about before or after my run, during those times you could say that every thing I do is "the" and make your mom jokes or even make all sorts of sexual inuendo, and I wouldn't give a damn. It's just during my string I need to focus on shred, not someone next to me trying to make me mess up so he has an edge.

Footbag Forever · Post by **Footbag Forever** » 23 Oct 2006 09:06

I think hecklling is very unprofessional. Whoever wins should win because of their skill with the bag not because they're good at messing other people up. Afterall it is a FOOTBAG competition. Everyone deserves respect while playing. Like others I think it's cool when you're just playing with friends, but leave it out of competition. Idk...just my thoughts.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 23 Oct 2006 18:34

I don't see how "skill with the bag" can be removed from being able to ignore distractions.
What happens if someone in the crowd yells out something funny and someone drops, or blows a hooter on every contact as I believe occured during circle finals (although Honza was good enough to shred through it). He doesn't get another go, its just too bad for him. Why? Because he should be able to focus enough to play despite distraction. I agree that no player should be able to say anything derogatory to another competitor in a circle 100%. But making a joke, or light hearted banter is a different thing.
Basically I think the the no distraction rule should be altered - implicitly if you talk during circle at all, and it distracts a player you may lose a turn - to me this is stupid - if you get distracted by talking too bad. If you don't agree and think players should all remain silent, fine, I disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.
Now having said that, if you agree that talking is OK, which a fair number of people seem to do (though not the majority by the looks of it, not that modified offers a good sample) you need to be clear as to what particularly can't be said. I should have been clearer from the outset, but I hadn't thought it through entirely at that stage, it was just a vague idea - I don't advocate derogatory remarks or verbal abuse of any kind - however I think if a player wants to talk during a circle in a distracting manner, be it humourous or just incessant, s/he should be entitled to do so. Its not necessarily a matter of disrespect in the context of competition - I don't see it as leading to violence - and I don't see how concentration can be seperated out of the set of skills required for being good at footbag.
I've always though less of golf and tennis for their insistance on total silence during play - I think its ridiculous.
Someone mentioned gymnastics, and while I've never seen it at top international level, I have seen a fair amount of heckling between gymnasts during competition.
There are many sports that allow heckling but don't degenerate into violence - generally in non-contact sports it takes much more than a verbal comment to set off violence. Regardless as I said I don't think we should allow players to be derogatory, but that's not to say they can't be distracting.

Footbag Forever · Post by **Footbag Forever** » 24 Oct 2006 06:58

ok well let me go into a little more depth on the subject...I think talking should be OK. Complete silence, now that I think about it, may even make a person more nervous than if there was a little background noise. I just don't think anyone should be able to make loud, sudden, or startling reamarks/noise, yadda yadda. Don't get me wrong being focused is a large component of this sport everyone should be able to play through a [/i]little distraction, but I think as a community any remarks made should be in high regards. Why don't we break the barriers and actually have a sport that's all about positivity, and support our competitors? Again heckle all you want with your friends at home but I think a competition should be a little more serious.
You also metioned the existence of heckling in other sports....but look how commercialized they've become? It's like take hockey for example...no one really wants to go and watch hockey anymore...it's no longer about skill level...they want to see a fight...and that's just something I dont want to happen to footbag. I just want to keep the integrity of the sport ya know?
I'm sorry if any of this offends you, not trying to burn you or put down your opinion. Just expressing what I think.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 24 Oct 2006 18:51

Hey the whole point was to get varied opinions and some discussion, so don't worry about your point of view offending me - I appreciate everyone who took the time to formulate an opinion and explain it for me - If only more threads contained this type of discussion instead of personal attacks and childish name calling etc.
I understand the desire to make footbag better than other sports in the positivity stakes. But allowing players to distract each other within boundaries hardly distracts from the "seriousness" of competition, nor do I think that the hockey comparison stands - hockey is a contact sport, people go to see it for its contact - if you provided an example of a non contact sport that has clearly been ruined by heckling I still wouldn't agree, but it would be better - maybe go with football/soccer - where the values once held have eroded over time until all that remains is "win at all costs". Still I see this as a failure of administration and umpires who have allowed this behaviour to seep in, if it had been limited to light banter at the outset there would have been no degradation.

sen · Post by **sen** » 24 Oct 2006 20:13

How do you know there wouldn't have been any degradation? How can you say that if <i>harmless</i> banter was aloud from the outset it wouldn't have escalated into something even worse than we see today? How you can be sure that soccer/football wouldn't be at an even worse place now, if harmless banter was brought in at it's birth and meant to be a part of the competition. Think about it, the banter wasn't supposed to be there at the start, but now we see a anything to win attitude. What if it had been there from the beginning? Is it possible that we would see full contact now? I think it is. I agree that we should hold Footbag to a higher standard. Let's keep it friendly. Let's keep the competion about one can do with there feet and a footbag. Not their feet, a footbag and an annoying person trying to mess you up. That just doesn't make sense.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 24 Oct 2006 21:15

If umpires with the support of the administration enforced the laws of the game clearly and effectively then yes, I can guarantee that the limits would not have been extended to include anything more than harmless banter - basically because that statement is simply saying that if umpires gave players yellow and red cards if they said anything derogatory then unsurprisingly derogatory behaviour would not have become so prevalent on the pitch. It's simply about drawing a clear line in the sand and enforcing it.
If you say talking is allowed but not distraction, then there is no reason that talking will somehow progress into distraction over time if the rule is enforced - the same goes if you draw the line after distraction but before derogatory remarks.
I don't see how saying that the abiltiy to block out the banter going on around you is an important footbag skill, doesn't make sense given that we don't shred in a soundless, distractionless vacuum.

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 25 Oct 2006 01:52

I dont think heckling has anything to do with being unprofessional, perhaps only when it becomes racial or particularly derogatory. International and domestic cricket teams heckle each other on the pitch all the time during matches, yet they are professional sportsmen who are friendly to each other off the pitch (most often).
Rugby players make comments to each other in the ruck, soccer players do the same, its about trying to break the opponent's concentration in an attempt to show their weaknesses. Thats not unprofessional - thats competitive sport.

janis · Post by **janis** » 25 Oct 2006 03:11

Footbag Forever wrote: Don't get me wrong being focused is a large component of this sport everyone should be able to play through a [/i]little distraction, but I think as a community any remarks made should be in high regards. Why don't we break the barriers and actually have a sport that's all about positivity, and support our competitors?.

I totally agree.
The only thing I have disliked about footbag is the over-competitive attitudes I have found with some of the Australian players. From experience playing soccer just about all of the heckling was of a racial or derogatory manner, something which I believe was an unfortunately negative and unattractive part of that sport. I'd prefer not to see this kind of attitude in footbag, but in the end there will always be people who favour competition over a positive atmosphere.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 25 Oct 2006 18:36

If you don't like competition don't compete. I don't see how my suggestion will lead to footbag becoming like soccer. I've played competitve soccer in Sydney for 20years and know all too well the culture to shich your referrring. My suggestion will in no way lead to that culture infecting footbag. Keep in mind we are talking about a very specific thing here - circle comps - not footbag as a whole. I think youwould be hard pressed to accuse me of being over competitve, those who have shreded with me will attest to that, but they will also attest to the fact (as Jamie did) that I can be quite distracting. Why should I be punished for other's lack of concentration in circle comp? Your "positive attitude" argument isn't enough - if you really placed positive atmosphere over competition you wouldn't compete at all, then we could all focus on improvement and how good we are as individualsrather than focus on ranking each other. But given that we are competing, lets be serious about it.

sen · Post by **sen** » 25 Oct 2006 18:52

Exactly. "Let's be serious about it." Let's not make it into a comedy club and drop fest. Let's let the player with the bag do his/her thing. Let's not attempt to make the player mess up and cause divisions and hate because of a competition. Competition IS important, but so is a friendly atmosphere. I really don't see why you are pushing unsportsmanlike conduct. It should not be a part of footbag. And yes, I do view trying to mess up a fellow competitor as unsportsmanlike. Very much so.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 25 Oct 2006 19:00

Because I think competitng in a circle of silence is silly, and i value the challenge to my concentration that circle competition could provide.

sen · Post by **sen** » 25 Oct 2006 19:05

Why not challenge yourselve in that regard in circles with your friends? Circle Competition is designed to build on each and trick big, not to drag each other down by heckling. Isn't it?

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 26 Oct 2006 00:22

I feel that primarilty it is designed to be competitive, and as such it should be within reasonable limits, and those limits include a bit of light talking and joking.

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 26 Oct 2006 07:19

You're free to talk and joke in circle comp, but if it's used intentionally to mess up a person's string for that certain circle, then that is unsportsmanlike. There are people that take freestyle with a high degree of concentration, but I'm sure that they can oblige to some light conversation. However, to shout "the!" or to heckle a person midstring isn't strategically appropriate, it's downright annoying.

Also, I've found we're using sports (aside from cricket and golf) that associate with a team of players and not any one solo player. With teams heckling it is certainly involved and approved, as there is a degree of professionalism and "friendly" competition" that is taken into context with each player and their opposing team. They're all in it together to win. However, for footbag and as freestylers, we are responsible for our own degree of ability and maintaining it in competition. There is no team in our sport to compete in circle comp, we're going solo in it. That is why I think golf is much more appropriate to compare to footbag in this sense. Everyone is there to concentrate in winning, but a slight disturbance from the opposition would be unfair for the other player as well as himself. Competition is there, but it is more passive than aggressive. Cricket would be slightly more aggressive, I suppose, since you're not dealing with acres upon acres of land (like golf) to make a shot that will net you within 2 to 3 turns.

Each sport has a different institution for professional integrity. Footbag is just as unique, and I doubt we need to have any heckling involved with the amount of concentration that is already needed.

RawSko · Post by **RawSko** » 26 Oct 2006 08:10

I would hate to see this implimented. I feel wrong heckling somebody else, and I would get super frustrated by having somebody else mess up my run.

I'm sure that players would still stay tight enough to laugh about this stuff afterward and not take anything personaly, but I think it's just unnecessary during a competition.

Footbag comeptitions should be based on footbag.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 26 Oct 2006 18:54

Footbag comeptitions should be based on footbag.

People keep saying this as if it definitively undermines my point, but as I keep replying footbag and concentration are inexorably linked and to artificially rend them apart takes away from the rigourousness of the competition.

You're free to talk and joke in circle comp, but if it's used intentionally to mess up a person's string for that certain circle, then that is unsportsmanlike.

How can you judge "intent". I dont't see how its viable to allow talking but only if it's intent is not distraction. All talking will be distracting, if you don't intend to distract, don't talk.

janis · Post by **janis** » 27 Oct 2006 00:16

dyalander wrote:
Footbag comeptitions should be based on footbag.
People keep saying this as if it definitively undermines my point, but as I keep replying footbag and concentration are inexorably linked and to artificially rend them apart takes away from the rigourousness of the competition.

Do you lack the confidence in your own footbag skills to win a circle comp?

bluntobj3ct · Post by **bluntobj3ct** » 27 Oct 2006 22:28

dyalander wrote:Because I think competitng in a circle of silence is silly, and i value the challenge to my concentration that circle competition could provide.

i guess it'd be cool if, during competitions, people were gonna be "sledging" me or whatever. i just wouldn't compete. i'd hop into a circle with some true footbaggers and have a respectful, sportsmanlike shred.

the idea of allowing the proposed conduct in formidable competitions is reminiscent to me of when american football players do stupid fuckin dances and act like complete fools whenever they score a stupid touchdown

sportsmanship is EVERYTHING. respect is even EVERYTHINGER.