For those who liked the video, you can download it now in better quality at webslinger.cz
I have no idea why the previous topic was locked so maybe there could be some explanation next time when something similar happens...
Anyway I really wanted to reply in the previous topic: Jeremy, Vasek`s whirr from the routine video was clean, I saw it from like 2 meters! Maybe you think every whirr which does not start like a whirling set is "the", maybe there are different standards in AUS, but I think you would be really glad to execute it like that...
Vasek and Honza continues...in better quality
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i think it could lead to knee problems though. it looks like a real knee killerMatt Cross wrote:the thing I like about the barraging ss clipper style is it can lead to the symposium whirr in that style if you get strong. has anyone besides vasek hit that move?
killer video, honza. It's got a great aesthetic. I could see non-players enjoying it.
Re: Vasek and Honza continues...in better quality
Webslinger wrote:Anyway I really wanted to reply in the previous topic: Jeremy, Vasek`s whirr from the routine video was clean, I saw it from like 2 meters! Maybe you think every whirr which does not start like a whirling set is "the", maybe there are different standards in AUS, but I think you would be really glad to execute it like that...
Yep we definitely have different standards to you then. In Australia if you dex above the bag instead of around it we call that "the". I actually prefer my style of whirr to Vaseks (Felix style I guess), although lots of mine are 'the' too, especially on my flipside.
Sorry for the low quality of the image. When my internet comes back at home (we are changing isps) I can upload a higher quality pic if you like.
edit; Note that this screen grab is the middle of the second dex.
edit2; Also note that I said the majority of Vasek's whirrs are the, not all of them. If some are clean and none are with a whirling set then obviously I don't think that all whirrs without a whirling set are the. We also have a different understanding of logic in Australia to the Czech Republic.
Jeremy, I don't think its possible to prove that a whirr is the from a screen grab. I could post a similar screen bag, with a players leg above the bag, of someone hitting a regular clean whirl. The reason is because for that type of dex to be clean you just have to beat the bag to the ground, because the dex is too the side of your body. This really only happens when you bring you leg especially high during the dex. In Vasek's case, his leg is already very high with respect to his hips because of the nature of his whirr's.
The thing is with Vasek's whirl's, the dexs aren't symmetrical. The first ones more like a barrage, the second being more like a mid-timed whirl, which is why we could have a screen shot like the one above half way through his second dex. It doesn't reveal the second half of the dex which is very important in determining if its clean or not.
I'm not arguing that this whirr in particular is clean. The camera angle and the quality make it very difficult to determine that. But I guess I'll just have to go with Honza's word on this one, I mean he's really really picky when it comes to cleanliness.
Just to emphasize my point, this is a whirl from Honza.
If his knee were just somewhat higher (as in vasek's case), its very easy to interpret it as the when its really clean (although maybe not super clean).
The thing is with Vasek's whirl's, the dexs aren't symmetrical. The first ones more like a barrage, the second being more like a mid-timed whirl, which is why we could have a screen shot like the one above half way through his second dex. It doesn't reveal the second half of the dex which is very important in determining if its clean or not.
I'm not arguing that this whirr in particular is clean. The camera angle and the quality make it very difficult to determine that. But I guess I'll just have to go with Honza's word on this one, I mean he's really really picky when it comes to cleanliness.
Just to emphasize my point, this is a whirl from Honza.
If his knee were just somewhat higher (as in vasek's case), its very easy to interpret it as the when its really clean (although maybe not super clean).
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There's a significant difference in styles between those two whirls.
It's really about the plane of dex. The plane of dex for Vaske's whirls is vertical - while for Honza's whirls, and most whirls it is more horizontal.
We'd all agree that a swirl is not 'the' if the foot is above the bag, but we'd all agree it is 'the' if bag is horizontally further away from the player than their foot. The same applies to normal whirls - the bag being below the foot does not necessarily make the move 'the' because it depends on the plane of the dex. If the dex is vertical and it's below the foot then it has to be 'the.' This is the case with a lot of Vasek's whirr.
I agree it's hard to tell from a single screen grab or a youtube video where you can't slow down the action and go frame by frame. Instead go and look at Vasek's routine from the 2007 Worlds. You should be able to find a downloadable version and be able to go through frame by frame (try using windows media player classic). At the end of his routine he hits a bunch of consecutive whirrs followed by a barroque. Go through these frame by frame. He is clearly dexing on a vertical plane with the bag outside of the circles he is making with his foot (below the foot). We can see from analysing his technique that if the bag drops below his foot while he's dexing it means it's dropping outside of the dexes and is 'the.' Unless he changes technique for whirr, if the bag is below his foot it is 'the.' There are obviously times when he hits the move cleanly, and I'd suggest you also go through an example of this frame by frame (if I recall correctly, the first one of his consecutives in the routine I've mentioned is clean - although I haven't watched it since 2007 so I may be wrong). Note the difference between the clean ones and the 'the' ones.
Generally if the bag is between the knee and foot in a perpendicular position to the shins the move is clean. If it is not in this region it is 'the.' No doubt with enough thought you can find an exception to this generalisation - so keep in mind that it is a generalisation, not an absolute rule. However in the case of Vasek's whirr vs. Honza's whirl it holds up as true.
It's really about the plane of dex. The plane of dex for Vaske's whirls is vertical - while for Honza's whirls, and most whirls it is more horizontal.
We'd all agree that a swirl is not 'the' if the foot is above the bag, but we'd all agree it is 'the' if bag is horizontally further away from the player than their foot. The same applies to normal whirls - the bag being below the foot does not necessarily make the move 'the' because it depends on the plane of the dex. If the dex is vertical and it's below the foot then it has to be 'the.' This is the case with a lot of Vasek's whirr.
I agree it's hard to tell from a single screen grab or a youtube video where you can't slow down the action and go frame by frame. Instead go and look at Vasek's routine from the 2007 Worlds. You should be able to find a downloadable version and be able to go through frame by frame (try using windows media player classic). At the end of his routine he hits a bunch of consecutive whirrs followed by a barroque. Go through these frame by frame. He is clearly dexing on a vertical plane with the bag outside of the circles he is making with his foot (below the foot). We can see from analysing his technique that if the bag drops below his foot while he's dexing it means it's dropping outside of the dexes and is 'the.' Unless he changes technique for whirr, if the bag is below his foot it is 'the.' There are obviously times when he hits the move cleanly, and I'd suggest you also go through an example of this frame by frame (if I recall correctly, the first one of his consecutives in the routine I've mentioned is clean - although I haven't watched it since 2007 so I may be wrong). Note the difference between the clean ones and the 'the' ones.
Generally if the bag is between the knee and foot in a perpendicular position to the shins the move is clean. If it is not in this region it is 'the.' No doubt with enough thought you can find an exception to this generalisation - so keep in mind that it is a generalisation, not an absolute rule. However in the case of Vasek's whirr vs. Honza's whirl it holds up as true.
It seems a bit arbitrary, but there seems to be a notion that dex's should be judged by a horizontal plain. Particularly whirls. By this sort of unofficial but commonly accepted approach, a good half of the whirrs that Vasek hits seem the. I don;t have anything vested in saying this. I still think he is bad-ass, and I wish there was more current footage of him available.
Honza, I personally think your whirrs are generally cleaner, though when vasek gets hits his whirrs deeper, they are my personal favorite. I remember seeing Vasek hit symposium whirr in person at Funtastiks 2007. It was very cool and cleaner than his typical (as per available videos online) whirrs.
I hope to see more footage of both of you.
Honza: You have such a range of tricks. It would be nice to see some footage of just you hitting a wider variety of moves. I often see a handful of modes where you hit a certain range of moves; twirls/ripstein/blender variations or guiltless shuffle consisting of masterfully executed but common 5/6add tricks. I think it would be interesting to see these two styles merged. It is something that Moir, for example, does very well.
It seems a bit silly to give advice to player in a whole other league of skill level but it's still objective feedback.
Honza, I personally think your whirrs are generally cleaner, though when vasek gets hits his whirrs deeper, they are my personal favorite. I remember seeing Vasek hit symposium whirr in person at Funtastiks 2007. It was very cool and cleaner than his typical (as per available videos online) whirrs.
I hope to see more footage of both of you.
Honza: You have such a range of tricks. It would be nice to see some footage of just you hitting a wider variety of moves. I often see a handful of modes where you hit a certain range of moves; twirls/ripstein/blender variations or guiltless shuffle consisting of masterfully executed but common 5/6add tricks. I think it would be interesting to see these two styles merged. It is something that Moir, for example, does very well.
It seems a bit silly to give advice to player in a whole other league of skill level but it's still objective feedback.
Sorry for the double post.Abe wrote:If his knee were just somewhat higher (as in vasek's case), its very easy to interpret it as the when its really clean (although maybe not super clean).
If we imagine Honza's foot in the same height above the bag and his knee above his foot, how could this move be anything other than 'the?'
Let me phrase it a different way;
Do you believe whirl and whirl moves can be hit 'the?'
If you do believe that they can be, what does a 'the' whirl look like apart from the bag being outside of the dexes which means not between the knee and the foot?
Describe for me the nature of a 'the' whirl.
Cheers.
edit;
Here is a good video, even though it's on youtube, to see what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NORqxDOy1Yw
Watch in hq.
Right at the end he hits whirr>whirr>whirr>barroque.
The first and second whirrs are clean. The third is 'the' and the barroque is 'the.' Because it's in slow motion it should be easy to see. The bag is not inside the circles in the air that he is making with his foot.
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Thanks Abe for the picture (and saving my time 
) because that is how I would explain it.
Jeremy, ye I bet it must be the cultural difference... that whirr simply was clean and it is not fair to judge every Vasek`s whirr like it was not, because at least 1/4 of them are nice. By the way he is doing them mid-time because his knee hurts a bit when he starts with the set and also because with this style they are more impressive for the audience...
Ian, thanks for the advice, I appreciate it and you are right (and of course there are always possibilities for improvement...), the problem is I don`t really have much time for making videos and most of them we shoot these days are for commercial or promotional purposes and we just do simple moves just to avoid dropping the bag... I will try to make one with more variety during the summer when I will have more time...
) because that is how I would explain it.Jeremy, ye I bet it must be the cultural difference... that whirr simply was clean and it is not fair to judge every Vasek`s whirr like it was not, because at least 1/4 of them are nice. By the way he is doing them mid-time because his knee hurts a bit when he starts with the set and also because with this style they are more impressive for the audience...
Ian, thanks for the advice, I appreciate it and you are right (and of course there are always possibilities for improvement...), the problem is I don`t really have much time for making videos and most of them we shoot these days are for commercial or promotional purposes and we just do simple moves just to avoid dropping the bag... I will try to make one with more variety during the summer when I will have more time...
Hey Jeremy,
Thanks for addressing this issue thoughtfully. It's really pushed me to perhaps retract my previous analysis, but after thinking about it more I believe it still holds.
First off, I'm somewhat confused on how your defining dex's to be either vertical or horizontal. Isn't swirl a vertical dex? Then if around the world is horizontal, a screen grab of the bag below the foot during a dex proves it 'the.' So wouldn't the oppisite hold for a "vertical" dex. Is it even fair to classify dex's that don't begin and end on the same foot as either vertical or horizontal? Because in the case of a whirl your foot is going up and down(vertical) and around the bag(horizontal), and both of these motions are happening at the same time.
But maybe we're just adopting different conventions here because personally and don't see that much of a difference the second dex of vasek's whirr and honza's whirl, other than his knee being much higher. And they both seem "somewhat" vertical to me.
Either way,
Here is a screen grab of vasek's first whirr in the series of whirr's you described, stating that is was in fact clean. Vasek's knee is above his foot, which is above the bag, yet it is still clean. The grab is strikingly similar to the one from the whirr in question. Such a grab cannot prove vasek's whirr 'the.' It probably couldn't prove it clean either.[/quote]
The trick is to take a screen grab before the second half of the second dex, when vasek's foot is dexing the bag horizontally like an around the world. In the first picture(the third whirr of the series) the bag is below his foot, the whirr is 'the'. In the second picture(the first clean whirr) the bag is above the foot, it looks like a nice clean around the world. All he has to do is get his foot over and down to the ground faster than the bag does, and we have a clean whirr.
Thanks for addressing this issue thoughtfully. It's really pushed me to perhaps retract my previous analysis, but after thinking about it more I believe it still holds.
First off, I'm somewhat confused on how your defining dex's to be either vertical or horizontal. Isn't swirl a vertical dex? Then if around the world is horizontal, a screen grab of the bag below the foot during a dex proves it 'the.' So wouldn't the oppisite hold for a "vertical" dex. Is it even fair to classify dex's that don't begin and end on the same foot as either vertical or horizontal? Because in the case of a whirl your foot is going up and down(vertical) and around the bag(horizontal), and both of these motions are happening at the same time.
But maybe we're just adopting different conventions here because personally and don't see that much of a difference the second dex of vasek's whirr and honza's whirl, other than his knee being much higher. And they both seem "somewhat" vertical to me.
Either way,
In rebuttal:Jeremy wrote:If we imagine Honza's foot in the same height above the bag and his knee above his foot, how could this move be anything other than 'the?'
Here is a screen grab of vasek's first whirr in the series of whirr's you described, stating that is was in fact clean. Vasek's knee is above his foot, which is above the bag, yet it is still clean. The grab is strikingly similar to the one from the whirr in question. Such a grab cannot prove vasek's whirr 'the.' It probably couldn't prove it clean either.[/quote]
Jeremy wrote:So question;
If that whirr is clean, what would a 'the' whirr, or whirl look like? Is it possible to 'the' a whirr? If so, how?
The trick is to take a screen grab before the second half of the second dex, when vasek's foot is dexing the bag horizontally like an around the world. In the first picture(the third whirr of the series) the bag is below his foot, the whirr is 'the'. In the second picture(the first clean whirr) the bag is above the foot, it looks like a nice clean around the world. All he has to do is get his foot over and down to the ground faster than the bag does, and we have a clean whirr.
I'm not at all into arguing like this, but I must say that this thread is great.
Yes, I also saw an unclean whirr or two from Vaska before, but now I'm actually thinking of what defines a dexterity and in what ways (horizontal/vertical) a flying beanbag can be circled.
Just to stay ontopic, the video was great (not for the hardcore shred, but to see new footage of our people) and if you want some creative criticism, here it goes.
LIKED
-the backround/ground
-colours
-length
-not too much posing
DISLIKED
-the camera angle (when watching, I felt like I was stuffed into a smal cube, I prefer an "open/free" feeling of a video)
-the music (interesting choice, but too repetitive and bland)
-compression method (not good for movement)
A question. is Vasek's clothing supposed to resemble the Czech flag, or was that just a coincidence?
Yes, I also saw an unclean whirr or two from Vaska before, but now I'm actually thinking of what defines a dexterity and in what ways (horizontal/vertical) a flying beanbag can be circled.
Just to stay ontopic, the video was great (not for the hardcore shred, but to see new footage of our people) and if you want some creative criticism, here it goes.
LIKED
-the backround/ground
-colours
-length
-not too much posing
DISLIKED
-the camera angle (when watching, I felt like I was stuffed into a smal cube, I prefer an "open/free" feeling of a video)
-the music (interesting choice, but too repetitive and bland)
-compression method (not good for movement)
A question. is Vasek's clothing supposed to resemble the Czech flag, or was that just a coincidence?
Ales Zazaro
I'm sorry Abe, but how is that image a rebuttal?
In Honza's whirl is foot is above the height of his knee. In Vasek's his foot is below the knee. This is obviously the massive difference between Vasek's whirrs and Honza's whirl - the position of the foot in relation to the knee.
It is completely irrelevant what you call horizontal and vertical. I was referring to the line the foot is dexing around. For atw you are bringing your foot around an invisible vertical line. For swirl it is horizontal. But if you change the names around it doesn't change my definition of 'the' at all.
A 'the' trick is when you're making a circle around the bag with your foot and the bag is outside of that circle. We can see from the screen grab I posted that the footbag *has* to be outside of Vasek's circle. There is no way it can be within it. Thus the trick is 'the.'
The picture you posted of Vasek from 2007 is different because of the perspective. The line between his knee and foot is facing the camera, so it's entirely possible the bag is within the circle as we don't have that depth of field. For the trick to be 'the' at that point in the move it would have to be further behind him his foot is - not further down. Even if the bag was 1cm away from the ground it would be theoretically possible (although practically impossible) for the bag to still be in his dexing circle.
A 'the' trick is one where you try to go around the bag but do not. It doesn't matter what plane your circle around the bag is going in, only that the bag is within that plane.
In Honza's whirl is foot is above the height of his knee. In Vasek's his foot is below the knee. This is obviously the massive difference between Vasek's whirrs and Honza's whirl - the position of the foot in relation to the knee.
It is completely irrelevant what you call horizontal and vertical. I was referring to the line the foot is dexing around. For atw you are bringing your foot around an invisible vertical line. For swirl it is horizontal. But if you change the names around it doesn't change my definition of 'the' at all.
A 'the' trick is when you're making a circle around the bag with your foot and the bag is outside of that circle. We can see from the screen grab I posted that the footbag *has* to be outside of Vasek's circle. There is no way it can be within it. Thus the trick is 'the.'
The picture you posted of Vasek from 2007 is different because of the perspective. The line between his knee and foot is facing the camera, so it's entirely possible the bag is within the circle as we don't have that depth of field. For the trick to be 'the' at that point in the move it would have to be further behind him his foot is - not further down. Even if the bag was 1cm away from the ground it would be theoretically possible (although practically impossible) for the bag to still be in his dexing circle.
A 'the' trick is one where you try to go around the bag but do not. It doesn't matter what plane your circle around the bag is going in, only that the bag is within that plane.
Valid point.Jeremy wrote:The picture you posted of Vasek from 2007 is different because of the perspective.
Here's a better angle, similar to the original screen grab.
This is one of two consecutive whirr's hit by vasek during finals. Both were clean (go check it out for yourself on .org). The grab was taken right before the last half of the second dex of course.
What's your point?
In that screen shot the bag is perpendicular to a line drawn from his foot to his knee.
In the screen shot I posted the bag is not, because it's too far past his foot.
That whirr is clean while the other is not.
I feel I should clarify something. When I said that if the bag is below Vasek's foot the move is 'the' I was clearly talking about a vertical plane of dex (that is, his foot going around an imaginary vertical line). If Vasek does whirrs where his foot does not go around an imaginary vertical line, but around a different angle then the bag can be below his foot, but it still has to be within the circle he is making with his foot. In the screenshot I posted he is clearly making a circle around a position in space that does not contain the footbag, the footbag is outside this circle and the move is therefore 'the.'
edit; I'm not convinced the whirr you've just posted is clean actually. The bag is long way away from his foot and he'll have to move a long way to keep it in his dexing circle. We merely can't state that it is 'the' based on that screenshot.
In that screen shot the bag is perpendicular to a line drawn from his foot to his knee.
In the screen shot I posted the bag is not, because it's too far past his foot.
That whirr is clean while the other is not.
I feel I should clarify something. When I said that if the bag is below Vasek's foot the move is 'the' I was clearly talking about a vertical plane of dex (that is, his foot going around an imaginary vertical line). If Vasek does whirrs where his foot does not go around an imaginary vertical line, but around a different angle then the bag can be below his foot, but it still has to be within the circle he is making with his foot. In the screenshot I posted he is clearly making a circle around a position in space that does not contain the footbag, the footbag is outside this circle and the move is therefore 'the.'
edit; I'm not convinced the whirr you've just posted is clean actually. The bag is long way away from his foot and he'll have to move a long way to keep it in his dexing circle. We merely can't state that it is 'the' based on that screenshot.