No Hands. This is footbag!

Flipsider · Post by **Flipsider** » 04 Jul 2005 14:13

It would make me very happy if every freestyler in the world would stop catching the bag with his hand from a perfectly good pass to start his run. Am I the only person who is bothered by this? It's comparable to a self-serve, but somehow much worse in my opinion. When people repeatedly use their hands I feel like we're playing separately. The circle's energy is infinitely better when people stop using their hands, and start playing *foot*bag. Kicks, passes, pass-backs, spontaneity, encouragement, and so on make a session much more interactive and fun for everyone.

It's also almost as bad when a player can't kick the bag but can hit 4s and thus catches the pass on a toe stall then immediately starts his run. Kicks are essential to footbag, yet so many players skip learning them and go straight to the adds. I see this all the time, and it's sad more than anything. Newbies don't realize that learning kicks properly has a huge impact on one's ability to freestyle, based mostly around coordination, breathing, balance and posture. Think about guys like Peter Irish and Vasek Klouda who were able to kick over 1000 before ever learning a Toe Stall. Come on footbaggers, USE YOUR FEET AND PLAY TOGETHER.

DISCLAIMER: Please note this is not directed at anyone in particular, I assure you. Please no one take this personal. I am talking about something widespread in footbag, that I wish would change. If you do this with me in the circle I'm not going to ridicule you or anything; I'm generally easy-going. That said, I've been silent about it for many years, and I think it needs to be said publically, so that others may realize its importance.

Post by **Allan** » 04 Jul 2005 14:42

WORD.

enhancement · Post by **enhancement** » 04 Jul 2005 16:30

I agree, there are a lot of players here who I tell not to keep self serving, they fail a trick and catch then fail, then catch, it would go on for a bit. One person does this in particularly. I think a full list of limitations and rules would go down nicely..........When will the site be ready

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 04 Jul 2005 17:30

Thats not what he's talking about Shane. Anyway tho, I am not really bothered by this phenomenon, but i can see how some people would be. To me its like: if someone is going to pass me the bag, I'm going to exploit my talents to show up the last player with the bag, and Im going to do this in the most effective way possible. If that means, starting my run from a toe stall, a left inside kick, a hand toss, an outside stall, whatever, I am going to do it. It really wouldnt be much fun if I had to start each run in a way with which I wasn't comfortable because my runs would most likely suck, at least until I got into a rhythm past the beginning few tricks that were influenced by the uncomfortable start. Now, if the way i started each run was so annoying, so frustrating to the other players in the circle that they were uncomfortable by me doing it, then of course, I would keep the peace by attempting to start my runs differently. Thats how I feel.

Jeremy

james · Post by **james** » 04 Jul 2005 17:59

Kicking is essential, hands are lame.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » 04 Jul 2005 19:05

yup... when we do circles at school, a lot of ppl do this and it pisses me off. but i'll show them next year with my insane freestyle moves! haah

jedidove · Post by **jedidove** » 04 Jul 2005 19:21

I'm just a noob but correct me if I'm wrong. Using hands or bailing to a toe stall (depending on your skill) is just as bad as giving someone a pass that is difficult to manage with. When my friend and I just pass to eachother just to kick a little (although we can't really kick lol) I find bad passes VERY annoying. I suck enough as it is but bad passes can make it harder. So I think resorting to hands or the like may be acceptable on occasion when in a situation such as a bad pass. I don't know, maybe those passes get a lot more manageable when you advance but I'm just saying this through the prespective of a beginner.

The Randallizer · Post by **The Randallizer** » 04 Jul 2005 19:50

the crazy montreal shredders at it again

This time I actually agree with you! I do believe that using your hands is anti-footbag, unless means of transportation

Why catch the footbag from a good pass? That doesn't make much sense to me. A toe stall catch is acceptable to me, but keeping the flow as you say is alot better for the circle with the kicks.

Not being able to kick the bag solid is pretty lame. Kicking is freestyle foundation, you can kick freestyle! (which is pretty cool IMO) Everyone should learn how to kick at least 100 times solid both legs including some clip kicks and flyers, they are just plain cool

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 04 Jul 2005 20:02

To be honest it doesn't worry me at all. I can have as much enjoyment playing with somebody who does self serve as with somebody who doesn't. As I've said a long time ago on the self serve issue - it really depends on who you're playing with. If you're playing with people who are against it - it would be respectful to follow their wishes. If they don't care and you don't care - well why not?

That said, when I play in groups these days I tend to not self serve or catch the bag at all, although I'm sure I have slips now and then. Personally this is more about me wanting to put pressure on myself to perform well every time then any kind of pinko treehugger hippy kind of ideal about energy and bloughchi

- I'm really not bothered by it at all. So if I'm ever playing with Ellis I'll make a point not to do it, but otherwise it just depends on how I'm feeling at the time (and who I'm playing with I guess.)

james · Post by **james** » 04 Jul 2005 20:18

There is art and skill in giving and receiving passes.
The worse the pass is, the better you have to be to receive it. It should mostly be the receiver at fault in mispasses.
bla bla bla

JFootbagger · Post by **JFootbagger** » 04 Jul 2005 20:51

I think another bad habit is trying a trick out of your skill range. I have a friend who tries to do like Whirl when he doesn't even have his clipper stalls down. Now, fooling around is all right, but repeatedly trying it is pointless and a waste of time if you don't even have the stall part of the trick. He also tricks drifter and refraction, but he can't even do 5 consec. clippers.

Usually this kid is really good...but it's just a bad habit I've noticed.

ShredOnLawn · Post by **ShredOnLawn** » 04 Jul 2005 22:18

I absolutely hate it when I throw the bag to someone and they catch it with their hands and then throw it in front of themselves.

I agree with Ellis, this needed to be brought up pubicly.

Thanks Ellis

Stop the Hand usage.

I have never done 1,000 kicks and don't plan to. I don't think they are necessary for learning or mastering footbag. But I do find that playing with people who can shred & KICK GREAT is much more fun that playing with people who can't save the bag with a nice solid toe kick save or 2.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 05 Jul 2005 01:48

This is a very interesting topic Ellis.

I do have issues about the enery in a circle, I play with a guy who often seems distant, this is probably because he has'nt totaly gained the skill of recognising what im doing, and its hard to watch someone and give props appropreately if you dunno what your seeing...

We often do like 2 or a few drops each, because unlike most people, we learn and school most footbag concepts together instead of playing solo, and its hard to achieve much when u do no self-serves.

However, if we are playing in public, I really like to enforce no self serves (though its hard) and just string like people normaly do when they shred in a group.

I don't mind if he catchs instead of kicking, but it does get me a bit when I give him props for every decent string he hits and I'm busting huge and get nothin, you know?

Anyone else get that?

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 05 Jul 2005 03:06

BalinorNZ wrote:This is a very interesting topic Ellis.

I do have issues about the enery in a circle, I play with a guy who often seems distant, this is probably because he has'nt totaly gained the skill of recognising what im doing, and its hard to watch someone and give props appropreately if you dunno what your seeing...

We often do like 2 or a few drops each, because unlike most people, we learn and school most footbag concepts together instead of playing solo, and its hard to achieve much when u do no self-serves.

However, if we are playing in public, I really like to enforce no self serves (though its hard) and just string like people normaly do when they shred in a group.

I don't mind if he catchs instead of kicking, but it does get me a bit when I give him props for every decent string he hits and I'm busting huge and get nothin, you know?

Anyone else get that?

I'm pretty much in agreeance with everything you said there (except for the busting huge thing... just doesn't happen

).

To be honest, hand catches don't really phase me, but at the same time, I only really kick in the same circle with mostly one other guy, maybe two.
Most of our sessions are schooling sessions, in my opinion. It's only really at events and comps that I'll be really focused on ettiquite.

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 05 Jul 2005 03:46

I agree with Jeremy - it never bothered me at all, just as self serves never have bothered me before. At tournaments though, I will watch
the "rules" of a circle though before I enter - but here in Munich
we don't care about that - it's all about how much time one has with
the bag. 2-3 self serves are ok, so are hand catches.

One thing I noticed though is that for me the energy of a circle is broken
when there's more than one bag, i.e. one or more players play with
their own bag while the others share one bag.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 05 Jul 2005 04:10

ebo wrote:One thing I noticed though is that for me the energy of a circle is broken
when there's more than one bag, i.e. one or more players play with
their own bag while the others share one bag.

This like the greatest offence in footbag. If you play with your own bag while in a circle and its not your turn, you are basicly just ignoring the principle of the circle, which is to watch others and give encouragement and advice. You cant play and watch someone at the same time.
Also I find having someone else play near me quite distracting.

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 05 Jul 2005 04:11

I think it completely depends on the circle. If I'm at a jam or tourney I will not use my hands to catch the bag. I will receive a pass with a kick or a toe stall. I'm working on receiving with a clipper, and I do it occasionally as well. However, if I'm hackin with my hometown homies, we take as much time with the bag as we want and we catch with our hands occasionally. Actually I just realized I don't really catch with my hands, I almost always kick the bag. I guess that's just a habit I have. But I'm not going to frown on other people when/if they catch the bag with their hands. As long as their having fun and everyone else is having fun I don't see what the big deal is.

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 05 Jul 2005 05:13

BalinorNZ wrote:
ebo wrote:One thing I noticed though is that for me the energy of a circle is broken
when there's more than one bag, i.e. one or more players play with
their own bag while the others share one bag.
This like the greatest offence in footbag. If you play with your own bag while in a circle and its not your turn, you are basicly just ignoring the principle of the circle, which is to watch others and give encouragement and advice.

don't want to get too offtopic here, but you misread me. I mean that
while everybody plays in turns, one or more players prefer to play
with their own bags instead of using the "circle bag".

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Jul 2005 05:49

Yeah, again that's something that doesn't really worry me most of the time. I think I'm probably happiest in a circle if everybody is playing well - so if two players need different bags to play well then that's fine by me because I'll be stoked to see them doing well regardless of what bag they're using. I guess personally I believe that you should aim to be able to play reasonably well with pretty much any kind of freestyle bag. I know my limits with bad bags pretty well and can still shred ok with broken in crotcheted bags (but at a lot lower level I guess). Although I have to say I have a recurring nightmare that I go to worlds and step into a circle with Vasek, Felix, Lon and Penske and they're using a mr. sandman (noooooooooooooooooooo - and just as the bag gets to me I wake up

)

Regarding the original topic - I think Nic raised a really good point. It's all about level. I think it's perfectly fine for a new player to self serve or to do anything that makes it easier for them (like catching the bag from a pass). In my club circles every Saturday there's obviously myself who can kick over 1000 contacts and can easily shred guiltless, and then there are a number of players who are not yet capable of even going tiltless. Often to me it feels like I'm getting a lot more of the bag even though I don't self serve - just because when I get it, I hit a long run - and then pass and they'll try a move two or three times, drop it, pass it to the next person. Sometimes I give the bag to somebody and say "don't pass it until you hit the move!" - and usually they do hit the move and everybody is a lot more stoked then if we had no self serving and the circle went drop>passback>drop>pass>drop>passback>drop>pass>30 contact run>drop>pass>drop>passback>drop>passback etc. which is what I can easily imagine happening.

One of the guys I kick with is a kid with some kind of learning disabilty (I'm not sure what) and he has basically no coordination. Often he will completely miss a self serve kick. Every time I (or anybody else) pass him the bag he tries to catch it. A lot of the time he drops the pass (with his hands - and not because it's a bad pass). If we played with "no hand catches from serves" then he might not get much of a kick at all. I think that would make me fell really bad - since I'm always stoked to see how much fun he's having - even if he doesn't have any skills.

So I really think it depends on the situation you're playing in. It's easy for very talented players who also get to spend a lot of time shredding with other very talented players to talk about rules like self serving and handcatching - but I think it's a lot different if you're playing with people who don't have those skills and might not have any intention of ever getting those skills. I guess a lot of time when I play, it's to have fun with the people I'm playing with, rather than to have fun playing footbag - if that makes any sense

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 05 Jul 2005 07:15

modified

No Hands. This is footbag!

Do you suck the energy from the circle? (Read topic before voting)

No Hands. This is footbag!