A Survey over ADDs

[Zac Miley]

3. Do you think that a quantitative scoring system is a good thing? (yes or no)

4. Do you think that the current system accurately represents modern freestyle tricks? (yes or no)

5. Do you think that a new quantitative scoring system should be implemented (this means either improving the current system or a completely new system)? (yes or no)
!

I have trouble answering these questions, because it is unclear to me what you are referring to. What do you mean by a "quantitative scoring system?" You mean a system to assign difficulty to tricks (hence ADDs in the title)? Or do you mean a quantitative scoring system for judging competition? And in question 4, what do you mean by "represents." Are you asking if the ADDs system describes difficulty accurately? Or are you asking if the ADD system accurately represents the components of tricks?

In order to get meaningful responses, I think the questions need to be more clearly phrased.

Ok, sorry Ken. For #3, the question should be read as, "Do you think that freestyle footbag tricks should be represented with numbers?"

#4 should be "Do you think that the current (ADD) system accurately represents the difficulty of modern freestyle footbag tricks?"

#5 should be "Do you think that the ADD system is fine as is, or there should be either improvements or a whole new system?"

Also, not necessarily for judging competition. For addressing the difficulty of ALL tricks (so that they could be used in competition), similar to ADDs now.

I hope that answered any questions. If you have further ones please PM them or post them here.

Thanks!

[h0ag3yb3atZ]

1. Do you visit Modified.in at least once per day?
Yeah, if I'm in school I check it and of course once when I come home.

2. Do you think freestyle footbag is more of an art form or a sport?
I can't choose one. I get the same "buzz" from a solid shred session that I get when I draw a sweet picture in terms of at first I feel all shitty and self conscious and I erase shit (or drop the bag) but by the end of the picture (or sesh) I usually feel excellent. I watched Erik Chan's Europe videos and the only word I could use to describe the runs on that was "beautiful". That's fucking art, I'm sorry. However, It is most definatly a sport. When some guy asked what the hell I was doing playing with a hacky sack in the Y hall, I told him I was playing the SPORT of pro footbag. It's a sport for artists I guess...the sport is our art? Two way fucking streets man...

3. Do you think that a quantitative scoring system is a good thing?
I plead the fif. I'm not qualified.

4. Do you think that the current system accurately represents modern
I really dig the "add" system. Yes.

5. Do you think that a new quantitative scoring system should be implemented (this means either improving the current system or a completely new system)?
Nope.

[Zac Miley]

Please answer with a yes or no. If you want to elaborate later you can.

I can't use that recent survey.

[EoghanMcDowell]

1. Yes
2. Sport
3. No
4. No
5. Yes

Good luck Zach, hope you get an awesome grade.

Eoghan

[Zac Miley]

Doesn't look like anyone else is going to respond, although you still can. Eoghan, I hate you for misspelling my name even though it's my username.

Results so far:

17 people have responded.
14/17 people think that freestyle footbag is more sport than art.
14/17 people visit Modified at least once a day.
2/3 of people who think that footbag is an art visit Modified at least once a day.
12/14 people who think that footbag is a sport visit Modified at least once a day.
13/17 people think that a quantitative scoring system is a good thing
ALL people who think that footbag is an art think that a quantitative system is a good thing (interesting)
10/14 people who think that footbag is a sport think that a quantitative system is a good thing.
12/17 people think that the ADD System does not accurately reflect the difficulty of modern freestyle tricks
10/14 people who think that footbag is a sport think that the ADD system does not accurately reflect the difficulty of modern freestyle tricks
2/3 people who think that footbag is an art think that the ADD system does not accurately represent the difficulty of modern freestyle tricks.
12/17 people think that a new quantitative scoring system should be implemented.
10/14 people who think that footbag is a sport think that a new quantitative scoring system should be implemented.
2/3 people who think that footbag is an art think that a new quantitative scoring system should be implemented.

Basically, it doesn't matter if you think that footbag is an art or a sport - you think ADDs suck.

[Outsider]

Basically, it doesn't matter if you think that footbag is an art or a sport - you think ADDs suck.

I didn't say that. I like ADDs. I wrote my response before C-Fan asked you to clarify your questions.

My answers were not responses to the ADD system per se, but to the scoring system of our competition. ADDs are barely used in scoring routines at World Championships any more. I actually prefered it when they were MORE significant to the score, not less. And, this was not because of ADDs role in measuring difficulty, but rather, ADDs role in measuring variety. Further, I liked the old "formula based judging system" more than today's judging system for the way it broke up "Presentation" into several different aspects that could be scored individually, rather than just lumping it all together into one "Artistic Merit" score that gives no indication of what a competitor did to deserve a high score.

I'll say it once more: my responses were aimed at the current scoring system of footbag competitions, in which I'd say the ADD system plays only a small and indirect role.

From my point of view, this thread and the conclusions that Zac has drawn from it is a good example of how statistics are often and easily misused. To make that point a little more clear, I thought I was being asked questions about our competition judging system, but my answers become represented as statistics for or against the ADD system, which was not what I was casting my "votes" on. edit: on the other hand, though the questions did not initially specify ADDs, the title of this thread did... now I feel kind of stupid.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
--Benjamin Disraeli

Sorry to tear into all this so harshly, Zac. Its not personal, but I don't like it when I'm "quoted out of context," as it were -- when I'm reported to have said or felt something counter to what I actual said or meant. Statistics, clearly, is a tricky subject for many reasons. Good luck with the class, and with the subject in general -- love 'em or hate 'em, good or evil, statistics do play some important roles in modern life, and they're here to stay.

[Zac Miley]

Ok, sorry.

[Drew]

1. Yes

2. Sport

3. yes.

4. yes, for the most part

5. yes

[EoghanMcDowell]

Oh snap. Sorry about that spelling error.

Eoghan

[Jeremy]

The results of this survey are a little surprising to me, especially question 4. Which is basically asking, do you think the add system is representative of difficulty. A lot of people seem to be focusing on the exceptions rather than the general rule.

I'm going to put it out there, that if you randomly choose a footbag video (make sure it's random) and write out a random (again make sure it's random) selection of 5 different 1 add, 2 add, 3 add, 4 add, 5 add, 6 add and 7 add (or as many as there are, if there are less than 5), and then rank those moves on difficulty independently of their add value and then graph them, there will be a very obvious, almost uniform relationship between add value and difficulty.

Let me give an example

Standard 1 adds;
toe delay, inside delay

Standard 2 adds;
clipper, atw, legover

Standard 3 adds
Butterfly, ducking clipper, pixie mirage

Standard 4 adds
Ripwalk, pdx whirl, ducking butterfly

Standard 5 adds
Blurry whirl, phoenix, mobius

Standard 6 adds
Blurry torque, mullet, spinning pdx blender

Standard 7 adds
Alpine blurry whirl, spinning mullet (montage) etc.


Instead of thinking about the hardest 4 add move vs the easiest 5 add move (both of which are exceptions), think about the average difficulty 4 add vs the average difficulty 5 add.

[Zac Miley]

I was talking about modern freestyle tricks more than the standard tricks.

So tricks like revup and far rev swirl and whatnot which have recently started to be used. The question still encompassed all tricks, but with more emphasis on newer tricks to the footbag world.

[Jeremy]

Your questions are pretty misleading then. The newer tricks in freestyle (neither of the two you mentioned are particular new), are hit with much less frequency and tend to be much harder because it's taken a long time with a lot of people playing before they started to get hit. Your statistics will be meaningless because you're looking at exceptions, rather than the standards, but you're asking questions that sound like you're asking about the standards, not the exceptions.

[Zac Miley]

I said modern freestyle tricks in the question. I don't think that's misleading at all.

But I agree, I tried to make the questions more to the point so I probably skipped some important aspects that needed to be addressed in them.

[Jeremy]

"Modern freestyle" usually either refers to post bap freestyle or post Ryan Mulroney freestyle.

What is the purpose of this survey?

[Zac Miley]

It was just for stats class, but I thought footbag players may find it interesting.

I didn't really think modern needed to be defined, but I meant the past few years, as in 06-now or so.

[Frank_Sinatra]

If anything, Zac, I thought you should clarify less. I thought your original questions were fine. An undecided option might have been a good idea but you may not have included that option for a good reason. Obviously the purpose isn't to prove to people that they are wrong for holding 'Opinion Z' on a certain subject...

Also, be careful about drawing conclusions, and how you phrase your conclusions. Hedge!