Your views on shoe modding

[james]

Yo Newf, I'm just tired of people making excuses for themselves and trying every little thing to get results when it really takes hard f*ing work. All you need is a pair of lavers, or goonits if you have unflexible ankles. The fact is a player's ankles will get better ON THEIR OWN, if you work them properly and not cheat with stupid mods. I have completely unbendable ankles and it took me 3 years to master osis, but I certainly would not have rather taken the easy way out, I'm better for it.

Forget mods, PRACTICE!

[JFootbagger]

IMO I think it's just cooler to shred in shoes that are raw (raw - whatever you want the definition to be) because it's kinda like a sense of "you don't need to do this to your shoe in order to play like that." Sure, there are some mods that will help your game...but I think you should atleast maintain a high level of play before you do those mods. Plus, mods. can probably limit you to a certain shoe, making you rely on them to play good.

just my 2 cents.

Now watch, someone will say something to make me look dumb

[Iain]

everyone who uses lavers and cuts out the canvas and open the toe box is a cheater. lets burn them.

sorry for the sarcasm, but i don't see why people care so much about what other people do. It doesn't affect your game. If you take pride in not having to use shoegoo, then so be it. However if you don't care and don't have a problem using it, then so be it. Don't put people down who do use it. It's their choice.

[Laroche]

Well, they asked for opinions, so dont be high and mighty just because we (the non-mod believers) gave ours.. this is a "discussion"

And I dont cut out the canvas

[C-Fan]

I just wanted to point out that this isn`t a black and white issue, with only 2 answers. There are degrees of modification. There`s a difference between clipping canvas from your lavers and putting so much shoo goo on your shoes that anybody can catch a bag on it.

The fact is, nobody makes footbag shoes out there. There is no `perfect` footbag shoe. Therefore, I`m not opposed to a certain degree of modification. But ultimately, one of the reasons I enjoy footbag is because it requires skill. When I see somebody hit a hard trick, I give them props. Why? Because I recognize the skill involved in it, and I recognize that the person probably put a lot of effort in the pursuit of achieving that level of skill.

Some shoes have bad inside surfaces, which makes clipper stalls hard to execute. If you shoe goo that inside to make it as flat as a laver, I think that`s legit, because it still requires skill to stall the bag. But if a player uses shoe-goo to make huge cups on their insteps, then it`s more of a case of the shoe doing the work, and less about the player`s skill. I feel the same way about super floppy bags as well: it requires more skill to stall an abshire mini than it does to stall a floppy, pancakey bag you made out of a sock. Consequently, I will give a beginner more props for clipper stalling a real bag than a floppy sandbag.

Ultimately, footbag is all about how much fun you have. If modding your shoes to an extreme makes you enjoy footbag more, then do it! But don`t expect a lot of props when you hit something. I`m still not sure if I have expressed my opinion clearly, so let me finish with an analogy.

Imagine 2 high school freshmen who have never played Basketball. They both try to learn to shoot on a regulation height basket. They both find it very challenging. One of them decides it isn`t fun to continually miss, so he lowers the basket at his house, and also stretches the rim so the basket is both wider in diameter, and closer to the ground. He plays at home like this, and decides he has more fun playing basketball with this kind of hoop. The other kid sticks with the regulation sized hoop and regulation height basket, and skools his ass of drilling shots. He eventually gets the hang of it.

Both players, thrilled with their progress, decide to post videos of their shooting on modified. Both players shoot videos of them making 10 consecutive 3 pointers (but one kid decided to move the 3 point line closer to the basket, because it was easier and more fun). I`d probably give props to both of them, and be happy that both of them are having fun, but I would definitely respect the kid who made the shots on the regulation hoop more. I`d also be more impressed by him. And people who have never seen basketball before in their life would probably have a similar reaction.

[Colin]

There are degrees of modification. There`s a difference between clipping canvas from your lavers and putting so much shoo goo on your shoes that anybody can catch a bag on it.

Quick reply, but I have more to say...

First, no degree of modification will teach you a mirage, and second, you say there's a difference between clipping canvas from Lavers and extreme goo mods - what exactly is that difference? You didn't get to it in your post.

[Uranos]

Ian, i think its a personal choice whether to put shoo goo or not,

If you think its cheating, then dont do it
If you think its fine, then do it

Imagine you hitting a big trick like ripstein....and would you take credit away from yourself because you had the shoo goo on, which allowed you to hit ripstein?

If your answer is Yes i certinly could not have hit it without the shoo goo, then i think you shouldnt put it on

If your answer is no, then i would say you should put it on


these are just my thoughts, they arer pretty shit sorry, but i think its your choice to think if shoo goo is cheating or not.

[C-Fan]

First, no degree of modification will teach you a mirage, and second, you say there's a difference between clipping canvas from Lavers and extreme goo mods - what exactly is that difference? You didn't get to it in your post.

The difference is in degree. The point I was trying to make (still am) is that a little modification is helpful, but when modifications are taken to an extreme, it lessens the skill required to hit tricks, and therefore lessens how impressed I am.

I also agree with you that no degree of modification will teach you a mirage.

But humor me again with a thought experiment.

2 newbies have never hit mirage before. One newbie is given a nearly empty sandbag which has a diameter of 5 inches. This bag is so floppy that you can balance it on your index finger. On one of his shoes, he has glued a tea saucer with big rims that edge upwards.

The other newbie is given a brand-new mini-Abshire which hasn`t been broken in yet. He is playing in shell-toed Doc Martens.

Which of them do you think is more likely to hit mirage first? Which one would impress you more when he hit mirage? Which one would have a bigger sense of pride and achievement once he hit it? Which one do you think will progress more over time, when both of them switch to lavers? Which of them is more likely to get new players interested in the sport?

Going back to my previous post, the kid who makes 10 consecutive shots on a shorter hoop with a wider rim still has some ability. But he`s not as skilled as the kid who makes his shots on a regulation hoop. He`s not as impressive to me either. I won`t tell him to stop playing on his short hoop, especially if he`s having fun. And I won`t tell people with extreme shoe modifications to stop doing them. I just don`t find it as impressive or cool, and that`s an opinion I`m entitled to.

Just to be safe, I want to reiterate that my position is based on degrees of modification. I cut out the canvas from my lavers, and cut the stitches in my toe box. I respect players who don`t mod their shoes at all. I also respect players who do the brocka mod, or who lace their shoes differently. But if somebody figured out a mod using magnets or velcro so that they wouldn`t ever miss a stall, or have to think about what they were doing... I wouldn`t find that very impressive or cool at all.

[Colin]

... when modifications are taken to an extreme, it lessens the skill required to hit tricks ...

The same is true of the toe box mod, or of the lacing mod, or of removing canvas, or of buying Lavers or a decent bag.

Which of them do you think is more likely to hit mirage first?

The cups and flopbag one, of course. Which will quit first?

Which one would impress you more when he hit mirage?

I'm not the one who counts in their games. You of all people understand that. Hell, you convinced me of it.

Which one would have a bigger sense of pride and achievement once he hit it?

Assuming that the poor fella in docs ever manages to hit it, they'd have the same sense of accomplishment from their move - they did the same thing. But the guy with teecups (assuming equal skill) will certainly have learned legovers and ATWs by then (greater sense of accomplishment), while poor old docs will have learned a whole new level of frustration, watching his friend hit the move over and over.

Which one do you think will progress more over time, when both of them switch to lavers?

Ahh, we're ridding the guy of his handicap! Well, it's about time. Cups was getting way too far ahead. Well, cups will continue more or less on track. (We use Lavers for a reason. Those toe boxes ARE teacups.) Docs will start to catch up to him, but again, assuming equal skill, cups will always be a step ahead of him.

Which of them is more likely to get new players interested in the sport?

The one having the most fun would have the most motivation to go out and recruit, and the one hitting the coolest moves would have the most power to go and recruit. Pretty neat that they're the same guy.

[mosher]

Oh boy, I am almost boiling over after reading all of this!

This is all fucking absurd!

Who cares what you do to your shoes!!

The idea is to create a surface that you find adventageous for playing the game we love.

Ken, do you not respect me or the moves I hit because I have shoe-goo on my shoes?

If I didn't have it there there would be a big hole, I guess I should learn to play with that big hole there so that I get more respect.

How about I start playing in totally unmodded high-heels, that way i am doing the complete opposite of cheating!

Don't you realize that you are only condoning the amount of modding you have justified doing for yourself?

The thought of the degree of modding being what matters is absurd.

If there was one thing that we could maximize that would make a person win it would have been done already. It's not like in long distance ski jumping where you just have to get the angles right and not fall. In footbag there isn't really a way to cheat or get an edge, I think trying to llimit the mods people do is silly and restrictive.

All the people that are saying that he should just learn to make a flat clipper in lavers should just accept that not everyone is shaped/designed the same and that LAVERS ARE NOT OPTIMAL FOR EVERYONE.

UGHGHGHGHGGHGHGH

Allowing some mods but not others is such flawed logic.

To not allow mods is ridiculous because we don't have a shoe that is designed for our sport yet so limiting ourselves to a shoe that was not designed with our needs in mind AT ALL is a little absurd.

UGH

I get so steamed up about this bullshit.

Ken, what about when the saucer dude starts busting tiltless after a month and the doc martin guy quits footbag and takes up competitive violin making?

I plan on continuing to superfuckingmodify all my shred shoes because THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR SHRED.

the end.

[Colin]

@ Laroche

: There are a few other reasons, some of which Melissa mentioned, but the answer you were looking for is that too sharp a curve on a blade makes it easier to take hard, high angled shots. "Like shoe goo!" you shout, but not quite. The making it easier to raise the puck has effects on the competative balance between skaters and goaltenders, pushing it towards skaters. How does shoe modding change the competative balance of footbag?

@ Everyone

: A question to all who oppose modding (whatever degree you oppose). When someone comes along and starts to produce a footbag shoe, would you want that shoe to be pretty good for footbag, or perfect for footbag?

[C-Fan]

Oh boy, I am almost boiling over after reading all of this!.

Then it`s probably rude to suggest you re-read it. But hey, I`m American. I get the impression you misunderstand my stance. I`m not anti-modification by any means. I`m just discussing extremes.

Who cares what you do to your shoes!!!.

Not me. But I need to kill time at work until 5 pm, and its reeeeeeaal slow at work.

The idea is to create a surface that you find adventageous for playing the game we love.

No argument here.

Ken, do you not respect me or the moves I hit because I have shoe-goo on my shoes?!.

Sunil also has shoe goo on his lavers, and of course I respect you both. But neither of you has an idiotic amount of goo which allows you to catch the bag 100% of the time. Similarly, you both use legit footbags. If you hit a blurry whirl using a super floppy bag and velcro on your shoes, I`d probably give you some props. But if you hit a blurry whirl using lavers and a legit bag, I would give you more props, since its harder, and since I know that would lead you on the path to become a better player.

Don't you realize that you are only condoning the amount of modding you have justified doing for yourself?

Actually, I`m condoning the amount of modding that 95% of footbag players I`ve met have done. Like I said, there is no perfect footbag shoe. A little modding is a good thing. A modding which completely takes the challenge out execution isn`t that cool, in my opinion. I personally wouldn`t want to play with it, and I think it would be detrimental to my game in the long run.

The thought of the degree of modding being what matters is absurd.

If 2 guys have the same body, but one of them can dunk only by using a trampoline... I`ve done this a bunch already.

I think trying to llimit the mods people do is silly and restrictive.

Who is trying to do that?

To not allow mods is ridiculous because .....

Who is `not allowing mods`?

I get so steamed up about this bullshit.

You shouldn`t. Nobody is telling you what to do. This thread isn`t changing anything... in fact, if anything it`s making people think about what they do with their shoes. That`s a good thing, its always a good idea to re-think out your positions. Maybe people who haven`t thought about it are thinking about it now. This thread is good like that. Don`t get worked up over it. We all still play footbag right? We all still have fun with it. There`s a lot more worthwhile things out there to get angry about.

Ken, what about when the saucer dude starts busting tiltless after a month and the doc martin guy quits footbag and takes up competitive violin making?
.

As long as they both have fun. Hey, if Doc Martin stuck with it, but never got good, but had fun playing, that`d be enough for me.

Listen, all I`m saying is that in footbag I recognize and appreciate when people do something that requires skill. I think that beginners should use floppy sandbags. I`m not opposed to beginners using massive amounts of shoe-goo if it makes footbag more fun for them. I`m just saying that ridiculously extreme modifications which make stalling a joke don`t impress me. As long as you are doing more work than your shoe, I`m cool with your mods. And whether or not I am impressed by your game, really shouldn`t matter to you.

[Acid~Reign]

I think equipment, technique and natural flexibility are the most important factors when it comes to hitting moves. Technique you can change as long as you're willing to work for it and equipment can be changed by either coming up with new models for shoes (which is probably a little past due) or modding old ones. It's alright to do it I reckon, as it compensates for the fact that there simply aren't any new models of footbag shoe coming out. How much you do it by all depends on you, if you can feel a sense of acomplishment with teacups on your feet then so be it.

Flexibility, on the other hand, varies a lot from person to person. Some people's 'ankle' joint have little range of motion in any direction while others have more in one direction than another (planal dominance). This is especially true for clipper based movements. There is a fair bit that can be done to compensate for this through technique but it's often impractical and so the last option would be modding.

[slapdash21]

i guess i dont care what other people do with their shoes...but i feel like you should land a trick first with no real major mods or goos. y'know...just so you know you can do it. ah hell, i really dont care what other people do. for me...i dont even own lavers, and the shoes i have are completely unmodded. sometimes i shred with a crocheted bag. and im still developing.

i actually had that ankle problem before, and its still a bit of a problem. half the time i do clipper stalls in weird places because i have no ankle crankability. but i stetch my ankles 24/7, and i think its helping.

[mosher]

I reeaaally think everyone is overestimating the advantage some shoe-goo gives! All it is ever used for is flattening out round and uneven surfaces.

In what way could it be used to 'cheat'?

Making a big cup? That would be uneven and inconsistent for kicking.

Lots of goo all over? That would be heavy and stiff and slippery.


I never get it when people suggest using velcro or magnets would be a way to cheat.

You could only do one move then! well.. assuming you could overcome the velcro/magnets to start your trick to begin with, but then you will have just yanked and screwed up the trick because you were trying to unstick your bag from your foot.

That was really fun how you picked apart my post like that Ken. I have seen people do that about other peoples posts that they had alot to reply to, I think that was one of my firsts.

I don't mean to sound angry or upset, when I say steamed up I really meant charged up and passionate. Like the words just start rifling out of my fingers with wanton abandon.

Here is my point, shoe-goo and shoe modding can never make you hit a trick without working for it, the same rules in that regard will always apply.

[JFootbagger]

I just think shoe goo looks disgusting on your shoe. Kinda like you stepped in some kinda gunk

"but it's not about image, it's about how you play"

yeah, say that to someone who's wondering wtf is on your shoe

and why do that to a shoe, when there already is a shoe that has a flat surface (LAVERS or CT's - which is debateable).

[KronoKicker]

The person who wants to put shoe goo on his lavers is not trying to make a flat surface. He can't bend his ankle enough to have the bag hit a level surface, he wants to use shoe goo to make a clipper rail that will stop the bag from rolling off his foot.

Ken you're my new hero .

Mosher you're an inspiration... exremely passionate about footbag .

[sampotter]

Ian -- I remember a LONG time ago when you posted a video of you asking for help to get your clippers flatter, and since then you've progressed much further into your game. Your clippers look like they're about as flat, when comparing that video and the clippers in the recent BCS videos. Mod your shoes. It will help, you'll thank yourself for it.

I'm not going to get into this discussion. I think it was Cameron Kennedy who said a while back, something like, "After a certain point in your game the stall is the last thing you're worrying about." Fix it and keep playing.

[BainbridgeShred]

Question is; how long before the IFPA puts regulations on modifications?

[Tsiangkun]

"After a certain point in your game the stall is the last thing you're worrying about."

Just put some goo on it and have fun.