No Hands. This is footbag!

[Allan]

All I know is that I have more fun playing with people who like to pass

[CIC flurry]

I can understand the need to keep the circle flow. When I first started freestyling, and I saw each person play, drop, then pass to the next guy (in turn), I thought that messed up the flow.

I was used to hacking where keeping the bag going (passing) was the flow of the circle - always being ready to save the thing and always wanting everyone in the circle to touch it for a circuit (hack).

I have developed an understanding of the freestyle circle, and its group aspect (energy; flow) since I began, and there definitely are certain things that ruin this flow (people not paying attention wen u serve to them, etc.). I have rarely seen someone catch the bag and serve to themselves. When I did, I thought it was weird but it didn't bother me, but I can see how it might bug people.

I can see the point being made. We are standing in a circle for a reason. We can easily play alone (*Singles* freestyle). So if we have fun in the circle, sweet. If someting is messing up that fun, then we should address it.

[shreddaily]

All I know is that I have more fun playing with people who like to pass

ARGGHHHHHH! Need to argue and make a sacastic stupid comment... saddly cannot.
Nice AH!

[Allan]

ARGGHHHHHH! Need to argue and make a sacastic stupid comment... saddly cannot.
Nice AH!

Ah, common, don't let me down!

[Flipsider]

Turning and walking away simply shows them that you are arrogant, not that you have issues with their circle's rules.

Are you serious, or are you just messing with me? This guy was not acting on behalf of the circle, as you may have understood when I wrote, "Everyone but him realizes what just happened." I'm trying not to waste peoples' time, so I'm condensing my statements and stories as much as possible. What I didn't say was that after I left and the guy finished his turn, the circle stopped, literally, while the other guys told him what just happened. A few minutes later he came up to me and apologized. I said it was ok, and suggested he pay attention to the circle more. Is it arrogant to expect the other players in the circle to *be* in the circle? I think not. Let's not make this topic about me, ok?

Footbag wasn't created simply for Ellis. Respect goes both ways. Perhaps communication between yourself and the other members of that particular circle could help to promote your ideas for a shred circle utopia.

Right. You win. Now to address a more mature opinion.

I think it's important not to expect everyone around the world to love and embrace the same local rules as your groups observes.

I completely agree. When I go to a new place, I don't force my will on anyone and I try to adapt to their etiquette as much as possible, whether it be shredding in a different country or just down the road in a common hack circle. That said, almost every hack circle plays by the same rules, right? But in Montreal, I notice a lot of hackers start the rally by self-serving, rather than passing to another player. When I join, I try to set a good example, and may on occasion in my best French tell them to pass instead of self-serve. Usually they don't get it, and just keep doing what they were taught. I let it go and have fun kicking with them.

It's pretty much the same way when I join a freestyle circle. But if someone self-serves 5 times, or hits 10 tricks then self-serves because he was taught that everyone gets two tries, or if someone starts shredding with his own bag (in the circle!) while it's someone else's turn, then yes I will say something. It's the excessive disregard for the other players in the circle that really bothers me. And since they are usually newbies who do this, I have no problem bringing it to their attention in a mature, non-threatening manner.

Now, about the 'hand-catch from a perfect pass' habit, which started this whole discussion, it is almost always done by new players who have not been told or figured out yet that it's generally a bad thing to do. When I see an experienced player do it, it's usually because he is trying to hit something for video and needs the extra bit of composure. If an experienced player always catches it in his hand, then... I guess it's his choice, and I'll let him be. It just won't be as fun to play with him. Was it wrong for me to bring this up? Probably not.

Regarding the "One True Way," I usually don't play that way. Montreal is more in the middle, which works for me.

[FlexThis]

[Uranos]

Too many rules = No fun.

Word.


I agree with Jeremy, it really depends on what the people's opinions on this is in the actual circle. If they dont care, then why not do it, if they minded about this, then dont do it.
But i agree with Ellis, i dont like it when people hand catch, unless its a bad throw. This is what really bothers me, a BAD throw. MOst done when people get frustrated with not hitting a trick and then throwing the bag straight at you. That pisses me off the most.

[richardabshire]

I think the best way to go about this is everyone has a style of play that they are comfortable with and that should be discussed before the session starts. That way the circle knows what starts a run and how it is passed to another player is clear and then the fun can go through the roof. No hard feelings to anyone regarding this thread. I think the new players will learn some very important tools when shredding in a circle with other shredders they don't ususally play with except at comps or jams. As for you Ellis, when the hell are we going to shred again? It has been too long. I miss those crazy combos you hit. Richie

[Genzu]

I think kicking is a good skill to have, but lets be honest Allan, how reliable are your feet compared to your hands? There is a greater chance u will drop when recieving a pass or will drop when starting the string simply because its much easier to start a string from hand catch.

I can't speak for Allan here, but for myself, I'd say my FEET are probably more reliable than my hands. I can't count the number of times I've hit a nice demo run for someone and then dropped the hand catch at the end .
For me it's easier to start from a kick.

Too many rules = No fun.

Too many? There's like what... Two rules in footbag, maybe three in oldschool hack circles.

1. Don't use your hands.
2. Don't self serve.
(3. and I don't follow this one, sorry) Don't say you're sorry.

How many rules are there in other sports?

Peace.

[Tsiangkun]

if someone self-serves 5 times, or hits 10 tricks then self-serves because he was taught that everyone gets two tries, or if someone starts shredding with his own bag (in the circle!) while it's someone else's turn, then yes I will say something. It's the excessive disregard for the other players in the circle that really bothers me. And since they are usually newbies who do this, I have no problem bringing it to their attention in a mature, non-threatening manner.

I agree, all of that ish pisses me off too. We don't have a growing scene in the bay, so I don't encounter new players that often, but I don't think I have ever seen someone serve themselves five times, that's just rediculous. I think it would be cool to see a kid who could hit 10 tricks, but I'd get a wee bit bothered if he started another run after he hit them.

I think it's about respecting the people you play with, more than it is playing by a certain dogma. One person doing their own thing is a big distraction for the group, and is selfish.

And now to get back on topic,
Someone who can't kick the bag is missing some of the fundamental roots of the game. It's not necessary to be able to kick to shred, but it should be something everyone standing in a circle is able to do. If you can't kick, you can't even pretend to be able to recieve and make passes, which is a critical part of moving the bag around the circle.

[BalinorNZ]

Elli I would just like to say, IMO rebates are a waste of time and often cause confusion. If you drop the pass, then pick up the bag end self serve. It is obvious to everyone that pass was bad and you didnt get ur turn. If you pass it, you passed it, and that is a sign you have finished your turn or you dont want it.

Rebates are ok if someone almost hits something and you pass back because u know they can hit it. But people take it way to far sometimes.

[FlexThis]

[Tsiangkun]

Yeah, but this discussion isn't about self serving per se, it's about kids who catch the bag everytime it's passed to them because they can't kick.

I think.

Bad passes happen, and everyone seems to be mostly in agreement that exceptions are everywhere, but what about the kids who can't recieve a perfectly good pass ? Is it expecting too much of a kid to recieve the pass with their feet if they can already bust long strings ? This is footbag afterall.

--
$postCount++;

[Genzu]

Pass recovery will never matter in ANY freestyle comps. Like EVER!

You self serve a routine, and you self serve shred.

So rule #2 is bunk.

I couldn't disagree more... Being able to recover from a bobbled kick or trick (I'll admit this is not necessarily like a bad pass, though it COULD be) is CRITICAL in a routine. Making the effort to recover from bad passes helps you with your "save skills" which is why my passes are always terrible .

Peace.

[FlexThis]

[Iain]

what i find myself doing sometimes and i don't see how it can be much of a controversey, is if the person before hit somthing or had a string worth giving a high five or a medium five, i'll catch their pass, give my props, then start kicking while everyone else gives props, and when it's all done, i start the run. It's much smoother and easier then catching it on my toe, hobbling over to him/her so i don't drop it, give props, hobble back to my spot, start kicking, and then go. If anyone has a better way of doing this, then please tell me so i don't have to catch it.

I think the best way to go about this is everyone has a style of play that they are comfortable with and that should be discussed before the session starts. That way the circle knows what starts a run and how it is passed to another player is clear and then the fun can go through the roof.

Good idea! At worlds, anyone who wants to shred in MY circle has to sign a terms and conditions sheet.

[FlexThis]

[Tsiangkun]

Nice story, but I don't see what that had to do with Ellis's topic of kids being able to self serve good strings and not be able to kick the bag at a very basic level.

[Allan]

Still don't see a need to enforce no self-service.

I think the word "enforce" is what y'all aren't gettin'. This isn't about "enforcement". It's not about me walking into your circle and telling you how to play. It's about simple courtesy and having a greater awareness of the people that you are sharing your space with. If that means you let someone self serve without comment to accommodate what you know they believe, then it works that way too.

If you want to self serve or whatever, it's obviously your choice and nothing, not even the "dogmatic" reasoning of your peers on a web discussion forum, will change your mind if you don't want it to

Hopefully, no one would ever judge you as a person based on such a trivial choice, but personally, when I compare players in my head, I do take things like selflessness and core understanding of freestyle fundamentals into account. I know they're are lots of kids out there that can bust paradon swirl out of a self serve (but can't do 4 infinities), but I don't think they're as good of a player when compared to a kid who can do 10 guiltless contacts, bust a ps whirl and pass, first try. I believe true control is more than dexterities.

All anyone is trying to do in making these kinds of etiquette-related posts is trying to raise awareness of how we see the game/sport/art of freestyle footbag and how we see that it could be improved if, for example, people were a little less selfish in a shred circle. That's pretty much it.

If anyone wants to get defensive about that and say that we're trying to take restrict your "free"dom (seriously, if one more person says "it's freestyle man.." I'm gonna be sick ) then that's your choice too. But it isn't going to stop us from trying to raise awareness of issues we see as important to the game's development and try to show a few newbies out there that there is, in fact, a common etiquette that you can follow and that doing so will help you play better.

Ellis isn't trying to tell you how to play. He's just saying he thinks it's bad form to catch a perfectly reasonable pass and then self-serve yourself. There's nothing wrong with that. I applaud it because I agree. He's an experienced player who has been playing long enough to see trends come and go and sees things that concern him. Like anyone else here, Ellis is trying to improve the vibe in the community the only way he truly can in a wide spread sense - using this tool we call a forum.

I dunno, I've run out of steam and need to get back to it here.

Richie, I'm stoked to read you Are you going to Portland?

[Genzu]

If anyone wants to get defensive about that and say that we're trying to take restrict your "free"dom (seriously, if one more person says "it's freestyle man.." I'm gonna be sick ) then that's your choice too.

Richie, I'm stoked to read you Are you going to Portland?

It's freestle man!! You already are sick Allan, so that doesnt change much .

EVERYONE SHOULD GO TO PORTLAND. IT'S JUST GONNA BE A FUN - HUGE - JAM... Dale, Davidson, Gehrman, me, Gorden, Husted, Irish, Linscott, Moir, Moran, B. Nelson, Penske to name a few confirmed dedicated shredders... The competition part is closed (I wasn't invited ) so there's no pressure, only FUN!!!