Abortion

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 16 Sep 2005 13:51

oh no! i messed it up a little bit!!!

frigging lack of edit button....

Kyle Hewitt · Post by **Kyle Hewitt** » 26 Sep 2005 19:04

people should have the freedom of choise about everything including aborsion

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 26 Sep 2005 19:44

BainbridgeShred wrote:Lol... This cracks me up. This in combination with the "DO YOU LIKE, LIKE HATE OR LIKE GAY PEOPLE ROFL OMG" thread ruins any respect I had for this forum.

Newf... Let me walk you through this one... In fact... No... You really don't deserve it. I was using an impossible situation to show the senselessness of Tsiang's example. Why did I even tell you that? I should of let you figure it out for yourselves. By giving you guys the answers I'm really only hurting you all.

Whatever... I'm done with modified.

The words of a confused child........

Grow up man.....and maybe spend a little time posting about footbag related topics. This is a footbag forum.

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 26 Sep 2005 20:30

Bah, there's no need to call someone names and bring something up from 10 days ago. You're right, this is a footbag forum. But this is a non-footbag thread in a non-footbag section of the forum. That doesn't mean what Dan was saying was appropriate, but what your saying doesn't sound on topic (as in abortion OR footbag) either.

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 26 Sep 2005 20:56

Me=

I just coulden't resist........

dragonhack · Post by **dragonhack** » 27 Sep 2005 07:31

jbalexdarkelf wrote:I dont know if there is already a ttopic on this, ut what does everyone think about abortoin.

For me im pro life all the way.

im saying that if the couple are'nt finiciancially stable enough or mature enough to take care of the kid then it would be worse than aborting it(except for adoption of course)
im all for abortion.end story.

professor · Post by **professor** » 27 Sep 2005 07:47

dragonhack wrote:im saying that if the couple are'nt finiciancially stable enough or mature enough to take care of the kid then it would be worse than aborting it

So, since the parents aren't ready means the child needs to die?

delakong · Post by **delakong** » 27 Sep 2005 10:27

professor wrote:
dragonhack wrote:im saying that if the couple are'nt finiciancially stable enough or mature enough to take care of the kid then it would be worse than aborting it
So, since the parents aren't ready means the child needs to die?

I know it's been said before, but people always seem to forget that a fetus is not yet a child. And yes, if the parents can't afford to take care of themselves it's wrong for people to expect them to bring a child into this world.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 27 Sep 2005 12:29

delakong wrote:
professor wrote:
dragonhack wrote:im saying that if the couple are'nt finiciancially stable enough or mature enough to take care of the kid then it would be worse than aborting it
So, since the parents aren't ready means the child needs to die?
I know it's been said before, but people always seem to forget that a fetus is not yet a child. And yes, if the parents can't afford to take care of themselves it's wrong for people to expect them to bring a child into this world.

thats funny. i also forget all the time that the alphabet doesn't have 26 letters. crazy how these things happen.

so you think abortion is wrong? you must...

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 27 Sep 2005 18:14

I'd like to see a strong philosophical arguement on this issue from the "pro life" people about exactly why you believe a foetus is a child and why killing it is wrong.

Take into account things like "it's defenceless" or "human life is sacred" are not strong arguements - you need to look at the issue deeper than that.

Personally I don't believe it can be done, but maybe I'll try to write one myself if I have time - not that I am pro-life at all, I'm just interested to see if the arguement can be put forward with out relying on people's religious convictions or their emotions to convince them that abortion is wrong.

professor · Post by **professor** » 27 Sep 2005 19:27

What do you mean by philosophical arguement?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 27 Sep 2005 19:33

I mean an objective and in depth arguement into the abortion issue as a whole - with the conclusion reached that abortion is wrong. An arguement that goes to the roots of the issue - why is it wrong to kill a foetus? Why is it wrong to kill at all? If this is argued on a religous basis you'd also need to argue why everybody should be made to follow that religion etc.

So an objective essay on abortion with an anti abortion conclusion.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 27 Sep 2005 19:42

"Human life is precious" is hardly an outlandish premise when the loaded word 'sacred' is removed. It demands no religious faith.

An aside - Jeremy, does the word epistemology mean anything to you?

professor · Post by **professor** » 27 Sep 2005 19:48

I would rather not write an in depth essay about abortion, unless it's for school, but I guess the root of the argument would be whether or not you feel a fetus has life. Most people agree that taking life is wrong no matter what worldview you have. So the core argument should start with, how would you define life?

Guest_2 · Post by **Guest_2** » 27 Sep 2005 19:50

It doesn't to me

Keep in mind, we haven't been able to determine precisely what defines 'life'. There are folks who refuse to ejaculate anywhere other than a vagina because it will be killing sperm which could be life.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 27 Sep 2005 19:53

The philosophy of knowledge? I think that's right, I'd have to check.

In my opinion the idea that "human life is precious" is mainly a strongly held view by people because of their cultural upbringing - I think it's been indocterined into them from a very early age such that they feel very strongly about this and often react violently when hearing about human life being abused or destroyed - however I don't think many people have ever given it a great deal of though and could put forward a strong arguement as to why this is the case - they just accept it as the case without needing any justification for why it is the case. Not that I disagree with that at all - I'm a pacifist and a strong opponent of the death penalty and all killing. But I also have no serious problem with abortions. I don't know if I would have one if I were female and in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy but I respect other people's right to make that decision themselves.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 27 Sep 2005 19:54

if you fight entropy you are alive. A fetus is not alive, it may be growing, it may be part of a living system, but it's no more alive than a virus. It's entirely dependant upon a host system to fight entropy for itself, and once removed from the host environment it is dead.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » 27 Sep 2005 20:47

Jeremy wrote:but I respect other people's right to make that decision themselves.

This is all well and good in theory, but it doesn't take into account reality. People don't know what is right for themselves.
Women who have decided not to have an abortion later can't believe they ever considered it in the first place. Also in many cases where women are deciding whether to have an abortion, it's because their male partner is pushing for it.

Jeremy wrote:In my opinion the idea that "human life is precious" is mainly a strongly held view by people because of their cultural upbringing

how about "do to others as you would wish to be done to yourself"

i don't think we need to "define life" here, just accept that we are all living and that our life is precious to us.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 27 Sep 2005 21:12

Toby wrote:
Jeremy wrote:but I respect other people's right to make that decision themselves.
This is all well and good in theory, but it doesn't take into account reality. People don't know what is right for themselves.

But this raises such a bigger more important issue: Should the government or other people in general decide what is "right and wrong" for a particular person or should they be allowed to make decisions for themselves even if they are poor decisions (ie. "wrong").

How do you decide what is 'right' and 'wrong' for somebody? It might be right for me to decide on my own to take out the garbage, but it might be equally wrong and cause more problems if somebody forces me to take out the garbage rather than leaving it for somebody else to do.

(goes and takes out garbage anyway)

To relate this back to the topic of abortion. It might be "wrong" for a particular person to have an abortion, but the effect of forcing them to have the baby, then either bring it up or adobt it out may have even more negative effects for that person and for the foetus. The "best" option in this case would be for them to decide on their own to not have the abortion but how can you make that happen? You can't so you're left with an option that could in all reality turn out to be "worse" than the "wrong" you're trying to fix.

toby wrote:Jeremy wrote:
In my opinion the idea that "human life is precious" is mainly a strongly held view by people because of their cultural upbringing

how about "do to others as you would wish to be done to yourself"

I have never been a fan of this philosophy. I'd rather treat people how I think they would like to be treated, than to treat them how I would like to be treated and often there is a significant difference. I also don't like the idea of being nice to people in the hope that they will be nice to me. If a random stranger asks me for $1.20 for a bus to Blackman's Bay I'll give it to them - not because I hope that if I ever need a bus to Blackman's Bay somebody will give me the money. In fact personally if I ever needed a bus to Blackman's Bay I would hope somebody slapped some sense into me and reminded me what a hole that place is. I don't really expect anything substantial and good to come out of giving away $1.20 for me - I don't do it for any personal gain reasons and I see the "treat others as you'd like to be treated" rule as basically a way of trying to channel people's selfishness into doing good things for other people. I'm not a fan of this, I'd rather deal with my own selfishness until I feel comfortable when I do things for other people and comfortable when I do things for myself.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » 27 Sep 2005 22:50

Jeremy wrote: But this raises such a bigger more important issue....

True. I don't have an answer for that.

Jeremy wrote: but the effect of forcing them to have the baby,

since when is denying abortion forcing them to have a baby? They had sex, and the last time i checked this causes child birth. They knew this before they had sex and are therefore responsible for their actions.

Jeremy wrote:
Toby wrote: how about "do to others as you would wish to be done to yourself"
I have never been a fan of this philosophy

I agree mostly with what you're saying, but i didn't mean it that way. I'm saying that from the perspective of a thinking non human being our life would have absolutely no value, however from our perspective life is everything. It doesn't take culture and upbringing to realise life is precious, only an understanding that other people live, think and feel just like you.

Abortion

Re: Abortion